Moyano: Weve always defended workers to the death – Buenos Aires Times

Argentinas failure has been not to create more formal private jobs over the last 50 years, a period during which the countrys population doubled. From the side of the workers, the most representative and fundamental figure of the previous half-century has been Hugo Moyano. A hero of the struggle against neoliberalism for his teamsters and villain of the combat against capitalism for free- market advocates, getting to know him more intimately allows a better understanding of what has been going on in our countrys labour world.

Now aged 77, Hugo Moyano is approximating the metaphor of herbivorous lion of Pern in his last months milder, more conciliatory and weary. The 140-minute conversation (published word for word in PERFIL) ranges over various issues. At times it resembles the free association therapy typical of psychoanalysis, where the method is not to refute but to go with the flow, in this case leaving readers free to draw their own conclusions.

Before we started this interview, you told me that at the age of 10 you were already working in a cold cut factory in Mar del Plata, La Atlntica.

I started chopping and boning meat there, labelling the salami four by four, attaching toothpicks and then hanging everything out to dry. Afterwards I was a delivery boy for a butcher. By the age of 16 I was already attending the counter and packaging.

And then at the age of17 you entered Verga Hermanos, the first trucking company you worked for.

Yeah, transport. My dad worked there. Before that he had also worked in Platamar. He asked me if I wanted to do the same. I was then working off a bike, the only thing we had in the family a Reyes [Epiphany] present for my younger sister. I took it off her and went to work on a womans bicycle. Thats where my story begins.

At the tender age of 18, you were elected a union branch delegate in Mar del Plata.

I was indeed very young. It happened in an instant at a meeting. Garbage collectors were then still not recognised as belonging to the union. We fought over that and we had a secretary-general in the union who was a great guy a Communist. He went to the Labour Ministry with a presentation and then came and read out to us what had been discussed. There were some comings and goings but the garbage collectors could not join. They wanted to in order to improve their wages. At some point a comrade said: Why dont we have done with this, why dont we go on strike? And they told him in answer that we could all go to prison. Then an old man spoke out: And do you imagine that the prisons were built for dogs? No, they were built for men! If we have to go to jail, we will. Those things encouraged me. I was just a kid but older people were talking that way.

In 1971 at the age of 27 , you were elected secretary-general of the CGT (Confederacin General de Trabajo) Delegation, a meteoric rise.

I competed with the previous secretary-general. I realised that people saw that since I was young, I had plenty of drive. When there was a vote for the first time in history [it was a Sunday], there was a queue stretching over something like 70 blocks. That was an eye-opener for our people in Buenos Aires. They began to see Mar de Plata as an important branch. With that momentum I won the election.

Do you attribute being so adult at the age of 18 to having started work at 10, giving you the vigour of youth and the experience of somebody more mature?

I had plenty of drive but its not as if we swept all before us, as many people would make it seem, no. Our claims were incessant. I said at the time that if we had opposition, we would not be able to manage the union but I never did have any opposition. Opponents for sure, there are always opponents everywhere, but they were never organic or up to presenting a list against me in the union. Even though there was freedom and democracy. The popular recognition of us teamsters is huge.

When did you stop driving a truck?

I left Verga because they had trucks in Buenos Aires but none of their own locally. I drove unregistered lorries aged only 18 [or] 19 but the drivers of Buenos Aires let me drive their trucks all the same. I remember we drove out of Buenos Aires with a packet of yerba mate and chatting and then the other said: You drive and went to sleep. It was a Volvo 495, a huge vehicle for those times. When we reached Dolores, the police stopped and my sleeping partner only woke up when I slammed on the brakes. The cop looked at my very youthful face and said: Che, you wouldnt have a bit ofyerba, would you? Yes, take it, I said, handing over the quarter-kilo packet of yerba we had just bought. As we were driving on, I said to him: Just as well he didnt ask for any licence! My sidekick looked at me and said: Why do you think I gave you that packet of yerba? I have lots of anecdotes like that

Until what age did you drive?

Until my union activities began in 1971.

In 1987 you were elected secretary-general of the teamsters with four reelections (1991, 1995, 1999 and 2003). Also in 1987 you were elected deputy for Buenos Aires Province. Was that with Antonio Cafiero?

Yes, I was on Cafieros [Renewal Peronist] list. Previously I held various posts on the Mar del Plata branch of the Justicialist Party secretary-general. chairman, deputy chairman and secretary.

The secretary is often the one who has to do all the work

Yes, he has to work.

Did you already notice your differences with Carlos Menem, that things would not work out well with him?

Yes. I respect elected governments but if they distance themselves from defending the workers, Im always going to stay in the same place. I never liked Menems policies. I dont want to exaggerate but when he began to hand over the assets of the Argentines, our position was firm.

Argentina today has seven million formal private-sector workers just as when you started out. To what do you attribute Argentinas failure to create jobs?

There are many factors, primarily neoliberal policies.

During the dictatorship and the 1990s?

Of course, it allowed businessmen not topay attention to worker claims.

Thus creating informal employment?

Thats what neo-liberal policies caused.

There are only seven million people in formal private-sector jobs when the population has doubled [since 1970].

The national policies have to do with that. As the General [Pern] said, there is nothing better than an example. They tell us it costs 10 pesos to import a jug and 30 to make it here so we start importing. But when the factory here shuts down and the workers are fired, were giving jobs to foreigners, paying more than the value of a jug. This country went overboard with imports, closing down many textile factories when measured against the volume of imports. In the 1990s imports did indeed sometimes cost less than the national product. Peso-dollar parity produced chaos.

What did you think whenJoe Biden said: Wall Street did not build this country, the middle class did and the trade unions were the ones who built the middle class.?

It made me think that at last they are starting to understand Juan Pern and they understand because its the reality. Wealth is created by the workers. The conditions for creating jobs must exist. Theres a lot to be done.

When did you find out about the existence of Jimmy Hoffa, the archetypal teamster of United States trade unionism?

Fundamentally after seeing the movie, for all the talk about it. [My son] Pablo is in the International Transport Workers Federation (ITF), as I was too but hes climbed a bit higher. I was ITF vice-president worldwide for land transport whereas hes ITF vice-president worldwide for transport in general aviation, shipping, the lot.

What do you think when Amazon, the biggest employer in the United States, takes a vote over a trade union and the workers vote against having a trade union?

That it could be a manoeuvre, that they want to modernise slavery to me it can be no other thing. Im not saying that there is nothing in the law which needs changing. There are things which may be modified but the trade unions should do it. Our collective bargaining agreement goes back to 1987 as its sole base. The average time on the road was 35 to 40 percent before that year whereas today it is 70 to 80 percent. You used to set out for Mar del Plata at 6pm and arrive at 6am the next morning in those big lorries. Today a truck takes seven or eight hours, 10 at most. You have to go, adapting things to this reality without going back in time. I do not deny that there are things which are useless to workers in practice. One example is sending people out on the street to work without safety.

If Rappi, PedidosYa or at one time Uber construct mechanisms of labour relations without trade unions, what is your reflection on that? Are those also new generations of modern slavery?

There are employees who do not even know who their boss is. They send them to certain places with all the risks that signifies, whether it be night or day.

Motorcycle and bicycle transportation are other forms of what teamsters do.

Humanitys most important invention is said to be the wheel. We move on wheels. Thats an advantage. There are many things to update while ensuring that there is no direct risk, either immediately or in the future.

If they generate advantages for the common good, we need to modify what is adverse, dont we?

Logically.

In Argentina, 86 percent of freight transport is trucked. What is the situation in other countries?

High everywhere. The lorry is more practical. When they talk of door-to-door transport, this means going straight from the factory to the place of work. If the item is transported by rail, you have to unload it from the train and then take it. Trucks save time as well as being much more practical, efficient and cheaper.

How do you imagine a future in which cars and trucks do not need human drivers? With 5G that will probably come to pass in 15 years, land transport could be driverless.

In the United States they wanted to put that in practice and it failed.

So its not going to happen?

It wont be easy. Many things are changing but it does not seem to me that its going to be easy. Almost impossible. Not only the roads need to be taken into account. For example, you have double-decker lorries. Our workers who drive them pick up a bonus, a wage and a half. They are very expensive vehicles and there are few of them. In many places the roads are not ready for them and the bridges are not high enough for the most modern trucks. Those things need study and adaptation.

Things neither you nor your son will see?

If I live as long as my mum, perhaps I will see some of those things.

Last Teamsters Day Alberto Fernndez said: If Hugo hadnt headed the CGT with Nstor, we wouldnt have been able to do what we did. How was your link with Nstor Kirchner and Cristina Fernndez de Kirchner from 2003 onwards?

It was very good with Nstor, he was very special. I got to know him when introduced by a comrade [Julio] Ledesma, who was militantly with the Kirchners. He said to me: Why dont we go and talk to Kirchner to see if we can get him to team up with [ex-president] Adolfo Rodrguez Sa? Each of us was working in the others campaign and we tried to bring them together.

To beat Menem?

Of course. He attended me in an office and we greeted each other. No problem with me, Nstor told me, whoever carries more weight [presumably in opinion polls] tops the ticket. Afterwards I saw him in the [Labour] Ministry when he was president.

And what was Cristina like?

She was different. We also discussed the same things, family benefits and payroll taxation. I was always trying to get on top of her. If something was, say, 70 pesos, I would ask for 130 peos. Then I would say: Cristina, 100, and youve got yourself a deal. And she would reply: But, Negro, the difference is now down to five pesos, to which I would respond: Five pesos are four kilos of bread, Cristina. I approached her from that angle and she would accept. Once I asked her: How is it possible that two-month gas bills in [posh] Barrio Norte are the same as in a working-class neighbourhood? Thats what the lads should be disputing. A two-month gas bill cannot be worth less than a gas canister in our neighbourhoods. With arguments like that I always won her over.

And Alberto Fernndez?

I often talked to him when Nstor was president. We have a good relationship.

And how does he differ today from when you knew him as Cabinet chief?

To me hes the same. He has a pretty important intellectual capacity. The situation of the country is different. Many people do not understand that. The worker does because not only did he take over a country in debt but the pandemic has done a lot of damage. Despite all that he keeps moving forward.

As vice-president, Cristina Fernndez de Kirchner has modified the wage bargaining guideline from around 30 percent by giving Congress employees about 40 percent, and then a few weeks ago your trade union clinched 45 percent, thus leading all the other trade unions to claim the same. Were the teamsters the wage bargaining benchmark for everybody else?

Everybody discusses wages in accordance with the inflation weve had. Weve signed a trigger clause [providing for the renewal of collective bargaining if inflation tops the wage increase]. Every year we have a special bonus for the start of classes [March] and the end of the year. We wont modify anything weve been signing for ages. I dont know about other trade unions. Theyve had some inconveniences but that does not modify other things.

[Economy Minister] Martn Guzmn set an inflation target of almost 30 percent with the first wage bargaining along those lines. But inflation topped that 30 percent to hit 45 percent. Dont you fear that if collective bargaining confirms 45 percent, inflation could move up to 50 percent?

That worry exists. You dont want it to happen but it does. We have a very good relationship with the business sector whose situation is understandable with many inconveniences, for example, the issue of tyres.

Which are imported and they cannot get them.

Of course. Fuel and highway tolls have also gone up, sums adding to costs. Thats pretty understandable even if some negative personalities go badmouthing transport. Thats all lies. I can assure you that when we sit down with serious business people, the wage discussion is totally responsible and respectful.

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Moyano: Weve always defended workers to the death - Buenos Aires Times