This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email transcripts@nytimes.com with any questions.
Im Tom Friedman, and Im the Foreign Affairs columnist for The New York Times. I just returned from Kyiv, Ukraine, and I would start every day by walking around the grounds of Saint Michaels Golden Monastery, which is a beautiful Orthodox Church, but also with incredible grounds. There was something very new in the piazza, and it was an exhibition of captured Russian destroyed tanks and armored personnel carriers. Some were fairly intact. Others were just completely gutted and rusted.
But as I would walk there, this contrast between this rusted military equipment in the middle of this beautiful piazza, and I eventually realized that it reminded me of a meteor, that it was like a meteor that came from outer space and landed on this country. Of course, it wasnt a meteor. It was an invasion by Putins army. And theyre still trying to figure out how to get this meteor out of the heart of their city, out of the heart of their country. Thats really the struggle thats going on there.
My recent trip to Ukraine taught me the Wests focus has to be engineering some kind of end to this conflict. And it can only come to an end if Ukraine is in NATO and the European Union. Adding Ukraine to NATO and the European Union would be the biggest geopolitical shift in our lifetime. You put Ukraine in the EU, and that becomes our Russia policy. I think the best thing that happened in my life was the creation of the European Union.
Now, most Americans will do anything for the EU, except read about it. OK? So the EU is this really boring thing that the Europeans do. And theres a parliament and a commission, and we cant figure out any of it. But in fact, the EU is one of the greatest miracles in global history, a continent, a giant space that, from time immemorial, basically, was famous for endless tribal, ethnic, nationalist, family conflicts. It became the biggest center, geographic center of free markets, free people, the rule of law and human rights. That is a miracle. Its an incredible, boring miracle.
If we bring Ukraine into that European Union, that would be one of the most consequential geopolitical tipping points since East Germany was united with West Germany. Oh, oh, oh, East Germanys Germany. Who was the Russian spy in East Germany who was introduced to international relations by running the KGB there? It was Vladimir Putin. It was Vladimir Putin whose big introduction to geopolitics was watching the magnet of the West melt down East Germany and lead to the unification of these two countries. Well, that, for me, has always been my framework about Ukraine and Russia.
NATO expansion was never the issue. The real threat for Putin was that Ukraine would become the new East Germany, that it would become an incredible model, magnet, and mentor for the rest of Russia, an example of a Slavic successful economy, start-up country and democracy, next to Putins Slavic kleptocracy and autocracy. Thats what this war has always been about in my view.
I think weve done the right thing, which is rushing to Ukraines support and supporting Ukraine militarily as best we can for as long as Ukrainians want to fight. The big decision point going forward is, when do we say to the Ukrainians we may have to settle for a dirty deal? Because people are not going to sign up to support you indefinitely. And they know that. People have asked me, so whats a possible dirty deal? The natural dirty deal is that Russia gets to keep some or all of its ill gotten gains, where it is right now, roughly those lines, even though that will mean sanctioning of one state, taking territory of another by force, and in return, Ukraine gets to be in NATO and the European Union.
Meanwhile, Putin I dont want to give him anything, but again, were talking about a dirty deal now will be able to go and say, I showed those Nazis in Ukraine. I punished them enough. Ive come back with more territory than I left with, and all hail the emperor. But Ukraine joining the EU would be an existential threat to him because hes the one who keeps telling us Ukraine and us, were the same. Were brothers. Because the whole proposition was, marry me or Ill kill you.
Vladimir Putin is a guy who is always looking for dignity in all the wrong places and in all the wrong ways. And so rather than saying, I want to build my country up to be a real competitor for the EU, it was all about fulfilling some fantasy, Peter the Great dream of forcing Ukrainians to unify with Russia so he could groove on the map, basically. And look at the price hes paid. People forget Russia put the first satellite into orbit in 1957. Its called Sputnik. It led the world. It led the world in that science and technology.
And today, Putins Russia, have you ever tried to buy a Russian watch? Have you ever thought of buying a Russian car? This is a country more famous now for poisoned underwear, poison tipped umbrellas, and locking people up in penal colonies in Siberia, and pumping oil and gas. Its a tragedy of what this guy, the country that gave us Dostoevsky and Rachmaninoff and Tchaikovsky and Sakharov and all these great writers, has given us rusted, burned out Russian tanks in the heart of Kyiv.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
View post:
Opinion | A Dirty Deal With Putin Could Be a Power Shift for the World - The New York Times
- Putins Character Was Clear Long Before He Retreated to the Far End of the Table - Vanity Fair [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- More than 4,300 people arrested at anti-war protests across Russia - The Guardian [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Putin miscalculated if he thinks West will move on after Ukraine invasion: ambassador - Global News [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Poutine not Putin: classic Quebec dish off the menu in France and Canada - The Guardian [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- TikTok suspends new content and livestreaming in Russia after Putin signs 'fake news' law - Fox Business [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Putins Other Nuclear Threat - The Wall Street Journal [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Sen. Lindsey Graham's apparent call for Putin to be assassinated draws backlash - NPR [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Washingtons Newest Worry: The Dangers of Cornering Putin - The New York Times [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Ukrainians Are Heroic Wartime Fighters but Vladimir Putin's Ready to Unleash Hell - The Daily Beast [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Putin's Henchmen Rage About Getting Trolled With 'Endless Photos' of Dead Russian Troops - The Daily Beast [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Letters: the roots of Vladimir Putins invasion ambitions - The Guardian [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Putin Proves There Are Worse Things Than American Power - The Atlantic [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Here's how Putin protects himself from assassins and coup plots - New York Post [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Social media turn on Putin, the past master - The Guardian [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Putin slithered into Ukraine as Biden dithered - New York Post [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Ukraine crisis: Russian President Vladimir Putin cornered over invasion 'miscalculation' - how will he react? - Sky News [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Fighting traps residents in Mariupol; Putin calls on Ukraine to surrender - Reuters [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Why Vladimir Putin is losing the information war to Ukraine - Atlantic Council [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- How far will Putin go and how far will America go to stop him? - CBS News [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Wading in blood won't stop Putin's doom from growing ever closer - New York Post [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Vladimir Putin - Ex-Wife, Age & Facts - Biography [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- After Putin-Macron Call, France Sees Russia Wanting 'All Ukraine' - The New York Times [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Letter: Party of Putin? - Post Bulletin | Rochester ... [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Putin is afraid Russians will see freedom on their own ... [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Are there off ramps for Putin? [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- Israeli prime minister meets with Putin to discuss Ukraine ... [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- John Bolton: Putin was 'waiting' for possible US ... [Last Updated On: March 6th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 6th, 2022]
- 'Putin is Hitler': why we use analogies to talk about the Ukraine war, and how they can lead to peace - The Conversation Indonesia [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- Mysterious: the $700m superyacht in Italy some say belongs to Putin - The Guardian [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- UK's Johnson: Putin has 'crossed the red line into barbarism' | TheHill - The Hill [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- Putin ally warns of nuclear dystopia due to United States - Reuters [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- Putin will have 'no choice' but to stop Ukraine invasion: former US general - Business Insider [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- Cold war echoes as African leaders resist criticising Putins war - The Guardian [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- Putin's invasion of Ukraine is seen as his biggest ever mistake and it will harm Russia for years to come - CNBC [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- Putin's army is dwindling and other commentary - New York Post [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- Why do Putin, Trump, Tucker Carlson and the Republican party sound so alike? - The Guardian [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- We were leaked the Panama Papers. Heres how to bring down Putins cronies - The Guardian [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- Biden: butcher Putin cannot be allowed to stay in power - The Guardian [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- Joe Scarborough: It's time for Putin to start worrying what the United States thinks - MSNBC [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- Putin should think about the consequences of asking for energy payments in rubles, Germany says - CNBC [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- Opinion | Putin and the Myths of Western Decadence - The New York Times [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- Books About Russian President Putin and the Forces that Shaped Him - The New York Times [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- What Is Putin Thinking? - The New Yorker [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- Biden Says of Condemning Putin: I Make No Apologies - The New York Times [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- How Putin Conquered Russia's Oligarchy : Planet Money - NPR [Last Updated On: March 29th, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 29th, 2022]
- Ukraine fatigue is setting in, just as Putin hoped it would - iNews [Last Updated On: March 31st, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 31st, 2022]
- The roots of Putin's ultranationalism and war on Ukraine - Los Angeles Times [Last Updated On: March 31st, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 31st, 2022]
- The US anticipated almost every move Vladimir Putin made in Ukraine. This is how they probably did it - ABC News [Last Updated On: March 31st, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 31st, 2022]
- Opinion | Rebuilding Ukraine Will Be Costly. Here's How to Make Putin Pay. - POLITICO [Last Updated On: March 31st, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 31st, 2022]
- Opinion | How to Defeat Putin and Save the Planet - The New York Times [Last Updated On: March 31st, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 31st, 2022]
- Putin promotes Chechen leader with ties to murder of Kremlin critic - The Guardian [Last Updated On: March 31st, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 31st, 2022]
- Putin on the fritz? U.S. not buying Russia's deescalation talk. - POLITICO [Last Updated On: March 31st, 2022] [Originally Added On: March 31st, 2022]
- Opinion | I Didnt Think My Mother Would Escape Putin Twice - The New York Times [Last Updated On: April 17th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 17th, 2022]
- Some U.F.C. Fighters Have Ties to a Chechen Leader Loyal to Putin - The New York Times [Last Updated On: April 17th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 17th, 2022]
- Former Russian lawmaker fighting for Ukraine says he thinks Putin's days are numbered because 'no dictator can survive after losing the war' - Yahoo... [Last Updated On: April 17th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 17th, 2022]
- Is Putin Destined to Win the Battle for Mariupol? - 19FortyFive [Last Updated On: April 17th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 17th, 2022]
- For Putin, It's All About the Money - TIME [Last Updated On: April 17th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 17th, 2022]
- US hedge funders new book reveals terrifying life on the run from Putin - New York Post [Last Updated On: April 17th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 17th, 2022]
- Lonely Putin Is Losing Control of His Own Spiraling Minions - The Daily Beast [Last Updated On: April 17th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 17th, 2022]
- Putin can't take much more of this: What lies ahead, defeat or apocalypse? - Salon [Last Updated On: April 17th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 17th, 2022]
- Putin says peace talks with Ukraine are at dead end, goads the West - Reuters.com [Last Updated On: April 17th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 17th, 2022]
- Coons Says 'Putin Will Only Stop When We Stop Him' When Pressed on US Troops - Newsweek [Last Updated On: April 17th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 17th, 2022]
- Zelensky warns the world to 'prepare' for Putin to unleash a nuclear attack - New York Post [Last Updated On: April 17th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 17th, 2022]
- Austrian chancellor: Putin 'in his own war logic' - POLITICO [Last Updated On: April 17th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 17th, 2022]
- Vladimir Putin's next move revealed as Russian President ... [Last Updated On: April 17th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 17th, 2022]
- Austrian chancellor: Putin believes he is winning [Last Updated On: April 17th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 17th, 2022]
- Putin Says American Reporter Is Too Beautiful to ... [Last Updated On: April 17th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 17th, 2022]
- Vladimir Putin is 'not as much in control as people think he is' - Sky News Australia [Last Updated On: April 20th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 20th, 2022]
- Ukraine war: Wimbledon 'will ban Russian and Belarusian tennis players' over Putin's invasion - Sky News [Last Updated On: April 20th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 20th, 2022]
- Putin plans to force mobilized Ukrainians to storm positions of Ukraines Armed Forces intel report - Ukrinform [Last Updated On: April 20th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 20th, 2022]
- Putin's Unholy War - The Atlantic [Last Updated On: April 20th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 20th, 2022]
- Putin Hunted Me Down All Over the World - The Daily Beast [Last Updated On: April 20th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 20th, 2022]
- Despite Putin's claims that the West's 'economic blitzkrieg strategy didn't work,' Moscow's mayor says the city is about to lose 200,000 jobs - Yahoo... [Last Updated On: April 20th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 20th, 2022]
- Putin's War Threatens Neon, Palladium, and Aluminum Supplies - Foreign Policy [Last Updated On: April 20th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 20th, 2022]
- For the Putin-admiring Trump cult, Ronald Reagan would be just another RINO - Haaretz [Last Updated On: April 20th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 20th, 2022]
- Hundreds of thousands flee Russia and Putins two wars - Al Jazeera English [Last Updated On: April 20th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 20th, 2022]
- Putin on the brink of major 1905 humiliation after disastrous naval defeat - Express [Last Updated On: April 20th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 20th, 2022]
- Biden blames Putin for inflation, warns war in Ukraine will 'continue to take its toll' on economy - Fox News [Last Updated On: April 20th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 20th, 2022]
- Sanctioned Russian bank founder Oleg Tinkov condemns 'insane' Ukraine war, calls on West to give Putin face-saving exit - CNBC [Last Updated On: April 20th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 20th, 2022]
- Ukraine Latest: Putin Popularity Still High as Russian Elite Question War's Toll - Bloomberg [Last Updated On: April 20th, 2022] [Originally Added On: April 20th, 2022]