Deconstructed Podcast: Is Canada Really a Progressive Paradise? – The Intercept

In the wake of last months federal elections, in which Trudeau held onto the prime ministers post but his Liberal Party lost the majority in Parliament, Deconstructed headed to Toronto for the Hot Docs Podcast Festival. There, Mehdi Hasan talked to two of Canadas leading politicians. Ahmed Hussen is the immigration minister in Trudeaus cabinet an immigrant himself who arrived in Canada from war-torn Somalia in the 90s. Jagmeet Singh is the leader of the New Democratic Party and the first Sikh to head a major political party in Canada. Hasan sat down with Singh and Hussen to discuss Canadas reputation as a shining beacon of Western multiculturalism and whether its truly deserved.

Jagmeet Singh: One of the things that Im so proud of is that young kids would come up to me from so many different backgrounds and say Seeing you run for prime minister makes me feel like I can do anything.

[Music interlude.]

Mehdi Hasan: Welcome to a very special episode of Deconstructed. Im Mehdi Hasan. From the U.S. to the UK, from France to Australia, the Western world has been torn apart in recent years by bitter divisions over race, immigration and, yes, Islam. Canada has seemed to be the one hold out, resisting the rise of nationalists and populists, and praised, celebrated even, as a liberal multicultural utopia. But is it really? Or is there a darker side to Americas nice, northern neighbor?

I went to the Hotdocs Podcast Festival in Toronto to find out and, in the wake of last months federal elections, sat down in front of a live audience with two of the most prominent figures in Canadian politics: former refugee turned Immigration Minister Ahmed Hussen:

Ahmed Hussen: Opening your doors to people from around the world, its not just a nice thing to do, its a smart economic policy to have.

MH: And the Sikh leader of the New Democratic Party, Jagmeet Singh.

JS: While during the campaign weve seen the liberal party campaign like they care about people, they dont govern that way.

MH: So does Canada the land of free healthcare, legal marijuana, and lots of immigrants really deserve its reputation as a progressive paradise?

If youre not Canadian, you probably know at least one Canadian politician: this guy.

Justin Trudeau: Canadas a country that was built by immigration. We know that this has been the story of Canada.

MH: Yes, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, son of iconic former prime minister Pierre Trudeau, who took office in Ottawa with his Liberal Party back in 2015. The handsome, eloquent, youthful new face of Western progressivism.

Jeanne Moos: No, not Justin Bieber. Its Justin Trudeau, Canadas new prime minister in his prime.

Phil Gayle: Trudeau is seen as something of a political golden boy. Hes young. Hes charismatic. Hes effeminate.

Eleanor Clift: Handsome, charismatic, progressive. The new darling of the progressive world community.

MH: Fast forward though to September 2019.

Michelle Fleury: Many were shocked when pictures of the Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau emerged showing him in blackface.

JT: This is something I deeply, deeply regret.

Newscaster: Yesterday, Trudeau apologized again after more images emerged.

Trevor Noah: Trudeau came out to apologize for one blackface and ended up admitting to more.

Newscaster: When pressed by reporters about just how many times he had dressed in black face, Trudeau refused to answer.

MH: The Trudeau blackface story got quite a lot of attention south of the border: it was simple, digestible, social-media ready, and completely intelligible to a U.S. audience given our own recent history of political blackface scandals thank you Virginia governor Ralph Northam. And it hit the news just weeks before the Canadian federal election, in which the country had to decide whether or not Trudeau would hold on to the top job. An election story that didnt get play in the U.S., though, was Quebecs controversial Bill 21.

Newscaster: The government of Quebec passed a law this weekend prohibiting some public servants from wearing religious symbols on the job.

MH: Bill 21, passed by the Quebec provincial government back in June, imposes a religiously neutral dress code on state employees in the province. That is, it bans public workers in positions of prominence school teachers, judges, police officers from wearing hijabs or yarmulkes or turbans on the job. Which has left many residents of Quebec, especially Muslim women, feeling like theyre no longer welcome there.

Nadia Naqvi: We cant simply put our identity on a shelf and come to our jobs. No, whether I wear my hijab or not, Im still the same teacher.

MH: Bill 21 became a big issue in the election campaign during the Fall, and led to clashes between prime minister Trudeau and his rival to the left, Jagmeet Singh, leader of the New Democratic Party, or NDP.

JT: I am the only one on this stage who has said yes, a federal government might have to intervene on this. You didnt say that you would possibly intervene. You didnt even leave the door open and thats not

JS: Lets be honest for a second here. Every single day of my life is fighting a bill like Bill 21. Every single day of my life

JT: So why wont you fight it if you form government?

JS: Every single day of my life is challenging people who think that you cant do things because of the way you look. Every single day of my life, I channel the frustrations of people who feel that as well. Many people across our country who are told they cant achieve what they want because of how they look. I am running to become prime minister of this country

JT: So why not act on your convictions and leave the door open to challenging it?

MH: Trudeau scraped back into office last month, but lost his parliamentary majority and will now lead a minority liberal government. Hell need the support of the left-wing NDP which despite a lively and energetic campaign by its leader Jagmeet Singh, lost 15 of its seats during the election.

So last week, I went to Toronto to talk to Singh the first Sikh and first person of color ever to lead a major Canadian political party. But first, I spoke to Ahmed Hussen. Hussen arrived in Canada in the 90s as a teenaged Muslim refugee from war-torn Somalia and eventually rose to become Immigration Minister, yeah, Immigration Minister in the Trudeau government. With a back story like that, who better to discuss Canadas reputation as a seemingly shining beacon of western multiculturalism?

[Music interlude.]

MH: Its a pleasure to be here in Toronto at the Hotdocs Podcast Festival for a special live edition of Deconstructed. We are talking tonight about immigration, Islamophobia, racism, multiculturalism, refugees, borders, all the good stuff with two very special guests, two of Canadas best known Politicians. My first guest tonight is Canadas Minister for Immigration, Citizenship and Refugees. He is a lawyer, an MP. He was former president of the Canadian Somali Congress. Hes a former refugee himself. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the honorable Ahmed Hussen.

Ahmed Hussen, welcome to Deconstructed.

AH: Thank you.

MH: Great to be here in your country, in your city. Congratulations on your very close to victory in last months elections.

AH: Thank you. That was a very, very close race between the third place finisher and the second place finisher so I didnt have a lot of problems.

MH: It was a bit of a weird victory. You lost your majority in parliament. You lost the popular vote to the conservatives. Youre basically Donald Trump to the conservativess Hillary Clinton, arent you? Im just saying in terms of winning power despite losing the popular vote. Im just saying.

AH: Well, I think we have a strong minority government. I think the message we got from Canadians is that they expect us to work with everyone in Parliament, making sure that we tackle the very, very real issues that have preoccupied Canadians and we are the first to acknowledge that we dont have all the answers, so.

MH: What went wrong for your party? Why did so many Canadians lose faith in Justin Trudeau, this once popular Prime Minister?

AH: I think look, I would say that Im very proud of the record that weve been able to achieve over the last four years. Of course, better is always possible, but I can tell you just the amount of stuff we were able to get done. I have seen it on the ground, you know, the number of children that we were able to lift out of poverty, the number of Canadians who are working now

MH: Im not disputing. Im just wondering, why did that not translate into a big victory?

AH: Its tough because, you know, its always a challenge when you are, you know, when you have a record to defend, youre dealing with a lot of false information floating in the universe. You know, there was a guy sitting in Buffalo sending stuff to Canada, that was completely false about everything under the sun and the current structures that we have simply couldnt do anything about that. So youre dealing with

MH: Is Canada more divided now than ever before?

AH: I think this election campaign was a very, in some ways it was uglier than Ive ever seen. It was it was very divisive. And I think that its fair to say that everyone has had a role in that. I think now, you know, looking back its important for all of us to reflect on how we all contributed to that environment and how we can do better as a country.

MH: What is the plan now? Youve ruled out a coalition government with the New Democratic Party, with the NDP. You talked about a strong minority government, isnt that a contradiction in terms?

AH: No, its not. It just means that what Canadians expect us to do Look, when you listen to Canadians, you can never go wrong. And what theyve told us is we expect you to work with every parliamentarian in the House of Commons to make sure that you address the issues that matter. A majority of Canadians voted for strong action now against climate change.

MH: So, why not form a coalition to do that wouldnt that be easier?

AH: Well, I think that you know, what matters is how you reach across the aisle and work on issues as they come along and work together to get things done. I think the majority of Canadians voted for Pharmacare. The majority of Canadians voted for an activist government that continues to invest in them. I think that we can agree with many of our friends across the aisle. I think that is the agenda that weve

MH: You are going to be relying on your NDP friends across the aisle to get some of this stuff through?

AH: Well rely on all parliamentarians to get the job done, depending on what the policies are. But I suspect on a lot of these issues, for example, on Pharmacare, I think our NDP colleagues would be supportive of that because they also want Pharmacare to be done now and we had already started some of that work.

MH: Ive got to ask about an issue that dominated a lot of the election campaign as one of the most senior and high profile black politicians in Canada. What was your reaction when that first image of Justin Trudeau, the Prime Minister, your boss, appeared in blackface, which dominated global headlines in the United States? It was everywhere when I switched on the TV in the U.S. What was your reaction that day?

AH: Before I answer the question, I heard some laughter in the audience. Its a very serious issue. I dont think it was a funny issue. And I think its, you know, my first reaction was one of disappointment. The images were disappointing to me and to many people. I think that, from my perspective, and I, again, I cant speak for anyone else. I can speak for myself. I took the time to reflect on this and to compare the images to the four years of my experience working with this individual and making sure that I was able to recollect and reflect on all the work that I had done with Justin Trudeau on engaging the black community, delivering unprecedented investments on black issues. I mean, the first sitting prime minister in Canada to acknowledge systemic racism as a reality in Canada, acknowledging and committing Canada to the UN Decade for People of African Descent. This is not an empty commitment. Once Canada signed on to the UN Decade for People of African Descent, it comes with deliverables that you have to deliver. I chose to look at that and

MH: Did you do that in a vacuum? Or did he call you up? Did he talk to you?

AH: We had a conversation. He called me.

MH: What did he say?

AH: He was kind enough to call me ahead of the release of the images in the media.

MH: You had a heads up? You knew it was coming up?

AH: Yes, he called me shortly before and and you know, we had a conversation. And I can tell you that one of the things that I contrast with everything else that happens in this country is the fact that he exercised leadership enough to come out unequivocally to apologize to those who are hurt by those images, and to use that experience to do better on issues, the real issues of systemic racism that really need to be tackled in Canada. I think one of the things that I regret about the aftermath of that was how the media really focused on him and the images, which, I mean, there were

MH: Three images, I think. Three images, right?

AH: But what I was hoping to happen after that was for us in Canada to finally have a long overdue conversation about systemic racism. You know, to ask ourselves, does the civil service of Canada for example, or the civil service of Ontario does it look like

MH: So I want to talk about that tonight with you, but I just want to get

AH: Do our institutions and our corporate boards

MH: And I want to talk about that with you tonight.

[Crosstalk.]

AH: I dont think the media did that. The media didnt do that.

MH: I guess partly because it wasnt just one image, it was three images. Did he tell you that when he called you up, there were multiple images? Or was it just the first one?

AH: No, he look

MH: I mean, he really committed to blackface. I know its not funny, but its very weird that there were so many images.

AH: No, again, as I said, you know, its human to err but it takes a leader to own up to the mistakes and to apologize to those who are hurt by those images and to commit, sincerely to learn from that experience and double down on more work against systemic racism. Thats not something that Ive seen in a lot of other instances in which that has happened.

MH: And his reputation is being rebuilt, do you think? Has he done enough to win back trust?

AH: Well, I think from again, from my perspective, my engagement to the black community after that and knocking on doors with my own constituents and some of the young folks that I spoke to, they chose to focus on the record. They said, you know, we want him to come back because hes been the most progressive prime minister. And hes taken a clear stand against racism and intolerance and bigotry in this country. And so, we are going to judge him on his record and we want him to come back. Thats the sense that I got.

MH: When I last interviewed you, it was late 2017. It was Donald Trumps first year in office. It was your first year in office. Have things got better or worse on issues around race relations, immigration, these kind of the debate about populism, and nationalism? Not just in Canada, but across the west from your vantage point, have things got worse?

AH: I think were at a point where, you know, its not that monolithic, right? When youre talking about immigration, when youre talking about responses, by countries refugee issues, there is the national noise and then there are amazing leaders at the municipal level and community leaders in places like France and Italy, who are really, really open to opening their hearts and their homes to the most vulnerable. So we gotta give those folks credit as well. Some of the most amazing creative work on refugee integration and providing homes to the most vulnerable is being carried out by cities around the world. Theyre meeting to work together on those issues. And they are working with Canada in many ways on that. And thats what I choose to focus on.

The other thing that I want to tell your listeners is, we chose, you know, every country has the right to decide on their own immigration policies. But we wanted to prove in Canada, that you can that, first of all that, you know, welcoming others, and opening your doors to people from around the world is not just a nice thing to do. Its a smart economic policy to have, that it is in your best interest to actually attract the best and the brightest from around the world and actually allow everyone to contribute including refugees. Secondly, that you can avoid the temptation to fear monger your way to power and build walls and instead choose to do the difficult thing to trust your fellow human being and build bridges for the world and having a smart and open immigration policy and win elections. And you know what, in Canada, weve done that. And Im proud of that fact. We wanted to take an unapologetic opposite approach to those who build walls to others and weve proven that it can work.

MH: You have been praised globally for your welcoming stance on immigration. Back in 2015, Justin Trudeau grabbed headlines by turning up at the airport to personally welcome Syrian refugees. I think 40,000 came in after that. But some would say that Canadas changed. And I want to see what your take on that is, that actually the Canadian Not just Canadian public opinion on refugees has changed but even the government that youre the immigration minister in has toughened up its attitude. Earlier this year, I believe your government asked the United States government to amend a 15-year-old border treaty, the Safe Third Country Agreement between your two countries. Why did you do that?

AH: When you say weve changed thats news to me because in 2018, Canada welcomed the most refugees in the Western world, more than the United States of America, a country that has 10 times our population.

MH: I mean, if Trumps your benchmark its not the greatest achievement.

AH: Its not just Trump. Its England. Its France.

MH: Fair enough.

[Crosstalk.]

AH: Im talking about the G-7.

[Crosstalk.]

AH: Canada, the generosity of Canadians

MH: So why are you trying to amend this treaty that refugee groups and others in this country are criticizing you for.

AH: Ill come back to the Safe Third Country Agreement in a second. But the generosity of Canadians has actually increased towards refugees

MH: Even though Im seeing a poll saying 57% of Canadians, according to a recent poll, said they didnt want the country to take in any more refugees.

Thats a scary number.

AH: There was a poll. There were some issues with that poll, but there was a poll last week that showed that 64% of Canadians do not think that we take in too many immigrants.

MH: Okay, 77% of polls are made up.

AH: Thats a snapshot in time.

MH: We have different polls, which is why we shouldnt rely on polls.

AH: Look, first of all the 40,000 Syrian refugees, we were able to do that from November 4, 2015 to February 29, 2016. Weve since welcomed a total of more than 60,000 Syrian refugees.

MH: So, Im saying people are giving you credit for that. Ive given you credit for that. All Im asking is people are saying theyre detecting changes, and theyre pointing to, for example, this treaty with the U.S. where youre saying to the U.S., you take these people back. Theyre not going to come and claim asylum here.

AH: Oh, the treaty has always been there. This is a treaty that was signed in 2004. I want to make it clear, its not a treaty that is designed to deny asylum, absolutely not. In fact, Canada, one of the things that Im very proud of is in the last four years, we have made sure that we have abided by our international obligations to protect the most vulnerable, that, you know, when you talk about the messaging in the past, weve kept up the principle that, you know, if youre facing persecution and you need protection, Canada will provide that protection for you. So the treaty is about the the orderly management of asylum seekers on both sides of the border. You know, its a 14-year-old

MH: But youre pushing for it to be hardened up for the Americans

AH: No, look, we talk about a lot of things.

MH: I mean, its called a Safe Third Country Agreement. Do you believe a country where the President puts kids in cages and tries to build a moat filled with snakes and alligators is a safe third country for refugees?

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Deconstructed Podcast: Is Canada Really a Progressive Paradise? - The Intercept