The other week, I had the distinct pleasure of recording a radio dialogue with Justin Brierley and best-selling British author/journalist Douglas Murray for the Unbelievable? program. We were very fortunate to catch Douglas and pin him down, coming off one of his routinely long legs of travel (we last found him in Mexico, I think) and still juggling a nightmarish schedule that kept us on our toes up to the early morning of recording. Thankfully, all was well in the end, and with Douglas adequately tanked up on coffee, followed by more coffee and then another cup of coffee, we enjoyed a very fast-paced 75-90 minutes together. Our goodbyes were warm but of necessity brief, to all our regret. While my readers wait for the program to air on January 3rd, here are some after-thoughts as a preview of coming attractions.
I first discovered Douglas in the summer of 2018 when preparing to write what would become a viral hit piece about Jordan Petersons dialogues with Sam Harris,Sam Harris Asks Questions Jordan Peterson Cant Answer.It was only the second or third thing I wrote after joining Patheos, but it would take on a life of its own and launch me into the circle of commentary on Jordan Peterson and the wider phenomenon known as the Intellectual Dark Web. Primarily famous in the UK and European pond, Douglas Murrays name rang no bells when I first saw that he would be moderating/joining the UK leg of the dialogues. By the time I came to write the piece, I had already familiarized myself enough with Douglas to know that he was far more than a third wheel in the debate and devote some space to his contributions.
Douglass body of work and thought quickly proved a much richer mine of material than I expected, on an impressively wide array of topics political and non-political. In fact, while he is best known for the former, it was some of the latter that interested me most. And among his areas of political focus, it was not necessarily his signature issues of immigration and Islam that drew and kept my strongest interest. Rather, what struck me most in getting to know Douglas through his various books, articles, speeches, etc., was the sense that I had stumbled onto one of the worlds last old humanists. (Well, that plus the sense that this guy and I would have been thick as thieves in high schoolbook thieves, natch. Any man who self-confessedly upgrades his favorite books from soft to hard-back, only to be stuck with two copies because he made notes in the soft copy so he cant get rid of that now, is a man after my own heart.)
Anyhow, humanism is a word now fraught with baggage in Christian circles, with some good reason. Many self-identified humanists proudly associate it with an aggressive rejection of the Christian faith. Nevertheless, it is a word I have argued Christians should be stealing back for themselves. I steal it back unblushingly on my own profile with the description Christian humanist. Ive developed my own philosophy of Christian humanism at some length in my contribution to the forthcoming anthology Myth & Meaning in Jordan Peterson (Lexham, March 2020the essay is entitled The Image of Christ: Peterson as Humanist). But if someone were to ask me for the short version, my new favorite short version is a riff on something Roger Scruton once said: I see the world, and the individual people in it, as lovable.
In context, Scruton was originally criticizing post-modern culture, specifically the way it desecrates the human person through art deliberately made orthogonal to beauty. This kind of art typifies a loveless culture, a culture that does not see the world as lovable. It is fundamentally anti-human. Thus, the task of the true humanist, to be a lover of mankind, is essentially counter-cultural. I would assert that it is also essentially Christian.
Why, then, do I find such a kindred spirit in Douglas Murray, who, despite my best efforts, didnt leave our conversation rushing to reaffirm the lost Anglican faith of his youth? (He was, in fact, rushing to meet his publisher for a last-minute late lunch, with humblest apologies for causing such a nuisance.) Its because I believe we each in our own way have taken up the humanists task. In a recent interview with Scotlands The Herald, he says that he doesnt love nations in the abstractEngland in the abstract, Scotland in the abstract. Rather, I love people. I love things about the people.
We both of us also recognize the Christian essence of the humanists task, even though Douglas still does so as a self-described Christian atheist. He takes this moniker both as a recognition of his abiding love for Christian language/liturgy/culture and a recognition of the Judeo-Christian bedrock that makes him wonder out loud whether human life would still be sacred in an atheist world. Douglas recognizes that he cant escape this bedrock underlying his basic instinct that while human beings are manifestly not equal in a host of outward characteristics, they are still equal in value.
As he discusses in this dialogue with Jordan Peterson (transcript here), it is this instinct that leads him to back away slowly when the odd fan asks him why he never talks about the IQ question. He urges anyone who shows an unhealthy curiosity in this area to join him. Agreeing together, both he and Peterson broadly condemn the pernicious conflation of difference in economic worth with difference in intrinsic worth. Here Douglas borrows a line from novelist Iain McEwan that hes used more than once, which is that we most of us eventually come to realize the nicest person we know may never have read a book. (Theres something about the fondness with which Douglas always lingers on this line that makes me wonder whether perhaps, for him, it might be more than hypothetical.) He wonders uneasily whether, best-selling books by Steven Pinker notwithstanding, we havent really progressed so very far beyond the 20th centurys blood-stained pages.
Douglas also has an instinct which he described to me as not just an instinct, but a drive to affirm the essential meaningfulness of life. Like Whitman, he replies to the question Oh me, oh life of the questions of these recurring, what good amid these oh me, oh life? with the answer That you are here. That life exists. Or, to quote one of his favorite lines from Rainer Maria Rilke in translation, Being here means so much. In a testy, must-read Easter debate about euthanasia with a far more calloused colleague at The Spectator, Douglas unapologetically embraces and repeats that simplest, least ironic of catch-phrases: Choose life.
I highlighted a case study from his latest book,The Madness of Crowds, about a young Belgian woman who first mutilated and then killed herself as she tried to become a man and only found that she had unlocked new depths of misery. The Belgian state was by her side the whole way, holding her hand even to the grave. Its impossible to read Murrays account of this case and not sense from him a deep sadness, an instinctive protective motion of the heart towards a soul who needed help to live and found only help to die. Its an instinct that quietly suffuses much of his commentary, inspiring me to give him the honorary title equal opportunity humanist in my review of the book. When we talked, he shared his particular burden for the listless and depressed, whom he constantly wants to encourage like Edgar encourages his blind father Gloucester in King Learas the old man falls to what he thinks is his death. Despite the fact that he has only a few more minutes of life, it is in those last few minutes that, as Douglas puts it, he discovers everything. If Douglas could leave people with one message, it would be the message that thats worth hanging around for, if you would only just hold onfor a few minutes more, hold on.
What, then, does it mean, this instinct, this drive? Douglas sees and accepts it by the natural light, like Auden in Precious Five accepts that he must bless what there is for being. What else are we made for, agreeing or disagreeing? But the question remains, to what might this point? To what, to be Augustinian about things, might this tend?
I had far too little time to discuss with Douglas where I think it tends. (For this dialogue at least, though he has graciously left his door open for more in the future.) The final third of our conversation turned to questions around Christianity, as he briefly reviewed his archetypally Victorian crisis of faith while I briefly encapsulated how I was raised to view faith and reasonas dancing partners, not enemies. When our host asked Douglas what it would take for him to make his way back, he told us only half-jokingly that he would need to hear a voice.
This challenge was a left turn, to say the least. But Douglas took pains to explain that he doesnt intend to trap Christians with it. He is quite serious: If youhave heard a voice, he would very much like to know about it. To the milquetoast politically correct Anglican who responds to the challenge with a Come come, my dear fellow, dont tell me youre actually asking about an actual voice from heaven, Douglas would say Why not? He would like to know. He would like to listen. Even if you honestly cant fake it and say youve heard a voice, at least putsomethingdown on the table. At least put some damn skin in the game, like the persecuted Christians in Africa and the Middle East, or the Christians in the American black church who dare to forgive their killers, whom Douglas regards with reverent awe. Otherwise, whats the point of it all?
There was limited time to convey that I understand what he means. I understand, I think, what hes looking for. I hope I began to nudge him towards it. I had the foresight to bring along a few of my dead friends in glorious 19th-century binding and briefly wave them at Douglas as we said our goodbyes, and to remind him of C. S. Lewiss warning that a young atheist cant be too careful of his reading material. (It amused me to realize that Ive been a Christian for over 20 years, longer than Douglas has been an atheist.) He seemed quite touched.
I have called Douglas the gay humanist in the title of this piece for purposes of clickbait (you did click, didnt you?) but Im afraid now that Ive got you all to click and read to the end I have no great reward in store. This is because it turns out I actually dont particularly care, and neither does Douglas. This was a source of some slight hilarity at one point in our dialogue, in which I waved about the woman card I never use while Douglas reflected on The Guardians mysterious reluctance to say Hey, lets give Douglas a good write-up, hes gay!
In fact, I do like to think of Douglas as a gay humanist in another and older sensethat is, the sense of men who go gayly in the dark. With such men, I will gladly walk arms linked, for only by such men is darkness pushed back one day more.
The week I recorded our dialogue, I went with a few friends to sing carols at an out-of-the-way country nursing home where an old neighbor friend of ours is spending her last days. I still had Douglass voice in my head as we walked around with our tidings of comfort and joy while the residents listened, some more responsive than others. A friends daughter walked around distributing candy canes. At one point, she came to one woman lost in Limbo. The girl wasnt sure what to do, so my father helped her. The woman eventually did take the candy.
Douglas, of course, was not there in person. Still, I shouldnt have thought it strange to turn and find him smiling over my shoulder, leaning forward to whisper, Thats worth hanging around for.
C. S. Lewis said that friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another What? You too? I thought I was the only one! Like Rick Blaine at the end of Casablanca, I believe this is only the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
Original post:
My Friend the Gay Humanist | Esther O'Reilly - Patheos
- Health and wellness fads 2019: What were the trends and what's to come in 2020? - Stuff.co.nz [Last Updated On: December 30th, 2019] [Originally Added On: December 30th, 2019]
- I thought to raise a feminist daughter I needed to raise a tomboy. But now we both love Frozen - The Guardian [Last Updated On: December 30th, 2019] [Originally Added On: December 30th, 2019]
- The Decline of the Intellectual Dark Web - Merion West [Last Updated On: December 30th, 2019] [Originally Added On: December 30th, 2019]
- Professor Loses Position for Committing a Grave Sin: Telling the Truth - The New American [Last Updated On: January 18th, 2020] [Originally Added On: January 18th, 2020]
- Natalie Wynn's critique of cancel culture (as someone in the midst of being canceled) - Hot Air [Last Updated On: January 18th, 2020] [Originally Added On: January 18th, 2020]
- Anti-Jordan Peterson professor accused of abuse of power by former colleague, students - The Post Millennial [Last Updated On: January 18th, 2020] [Originally Added On: January 18th, 2020]
- Atheism's second thoughts - WORLD News Group [Last Updated On: January 18th, 2020] [Originally Added On: January 18th, 2020]
- Self IMPROVment on the beach at the Reif - Herald Review [Last Updated On: January 18th, 2020] [Originally Added On: January 18th, 2020]
- North Dakota Game and Fish Department recognizes volunteer hunter and archery education instructors - Grand Forks Herald [Last Updated On: February 27th, 2020] [Originally Added On: February 27th, 2020]
- Here's What a Week on the Carnivore Diet Did to This Bodybuilder - Men's Health [Last Updated On: February 27th, 2020] [Originally Added On: February 27th, 2020]
- Podcast giant Joe Rogan coming to Tampas Amalie Arena - Tampa Bay Times [Last Updated On: February 27th, 2020] [Originally Added On: February 27th, 2020]
- EXCLUSIVE: Update on the health of Dr. Jordan B. Peterson - The Post Millennial [Last Updated On: February 27th, 2020] [Originally Added On: February 27th, 2020]
- Japanese Herbivore Men Become Unlikely Heroes of Mens Rights Movement - JAPAN Forward [Last Updated On: March 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: March 24th, 2020]
- Prof still fighting school's demand to call he a 'she' - OneNewsNow [Last Updated On: March 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: March 24th, 2020]
- The Fraught Relationship Between Religion and Epidemiology - Merion West [Last Updated On: March 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: March 24th, 2020]
- Bernie needs to step back and let other progressive leaders flourish especially women - Salon [Last Updated On: March 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: March 24th, 2020]
- DeSmogBlog: Climate Activist Site Smears Freeman Dyson and Other Scientists - American Council on Science and Health [Last Updated On: March 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: March 24th, 2020]
- Five hours to change your life with Jordan Peterson - Patheos [Last Updated On: March 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: March 24th, 2020]
- The carnivore confessions: I've never felt better than on my meat-only diet - The Spectator USA [Last Updated On: March 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: March 24th, 2020]
- The Critics of Social Justice, from Jonah Goldberg to Jordan Peterson - Merion West [Last Updated On: March 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: March 24th, 2020]
- How Joe Rogan and Eric Weinstein Sinned - Thrive Global [Last Updated On: April 9th, 2020] [Originally Added On: April 9th, 2020]
- Bird Droppings: Arizona Cardinals preparing for virtual draft, Jordan Phillips looks to build on career year - Revenge of the Birds [Last Updated On: April 9th, 2020] [Originally Added On: April 9th, 2020]
- Reading in the Age of Coronavirus - Merion West [Last Updated On: April 9th, 2020] [Originally Added On: April 9th, 2020]
- Chris Harris Jr., Named to NFL's All-Decade Team - Kansas Jayhawks [Last Updated On: April 11th, 2020] [Originally Added On: April 11th, 2020]
- The Shares Of Graco Are Still Overpriced - Seeking Alpha [Last Updated On: April 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: April 24th, 2020]
- There Was Only One Player Michael Jordan Feared Playing, According To Former Teammate At UNC - BroBible [Last Updated On: May 4th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 4th, 2020]
- Dave Rubin is out of ideas - Business Insider - Business Insider [Last Updated On: May 4th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 4th, 2020]
- Why are the Pats suddenly betting favorites to land Cam Newton? - NBCSports.com [Last Updated On: May 4th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 4th, 2020]
- The Problem with Edmund Burke and Defenders of Tradition - Merion West [Last Updated On: May 4th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 4th, 2020]
- Russell Brand And Ricky Gervais Are Just What Your Brain Needs - The Federalist [Last Updated On: May 4th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 4th, 2020]
- Patriots Draft Pick Has Right-Wing Paramilitary Gang Tattoo. But It's OK, He Didn't Know What It Meant - The Root [Last Updated On: May 4th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 4th, 2020]
- Justin Amash could lead conservative reformation - Spring Hope Enterprise [Last Updated On: May 4th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 4th, 2020]
- Watch now: Remembering Michael Jordans 1982 weekend and loss to TU at the Mabee Center - Tulsa World [Last Updated On: May 4th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 4th, 2020]
- Dave Rubin Talks To Shapiro About Learning From Jordan Peterson On Tour - The Daily Wire [Last Updated On: May 4th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 4th, 2020]
- Jordan Peterson and Carl Jung's Worldviews Have Been Greatly Oversimplified - Merion West [Last Updated On: May 4th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 4th, 2020]
- Congratulation To All 278 Class Of 2020 Graduates - Los Alamos Reporter [Last Updated On: May 17th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 17th, 2020]
- Mohamed and the Mountain | Annette Poizner | The Blogs - The Times of Israel [Last Updated On: May 17th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 17th, 2020]
- Wisconsin Bars Flooded With Traffic, Or Are They? - TheStreet [Last Updated On: May 17th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 17th, 2020]
- Cardinals reportedly have interest in Everson Griffen - NBCSports.com [Last Updated On: May 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 24th, 2020]
- The Indy Book Club: Convenience Store Woman is a gothic love story with a sickly capitalist kink - The Independent [Last Updated On: May 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 24th, 2020]
- Graduation 2020: Westby Area High School - The Westby Times [Last Updated On: May 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 24th, 2020]
- Jonathan Kay: It takes a true artist to find new ways to shock the conscience. Kent Monkman has done that - National Post [Last Updated On: May 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 24th, 2020]
- Patrick Peterson says 2020 Cardinals are, on paper, best team he has been on - Cards Wire [Last Updated On: May 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 24th, 2020]
- Quade Cooper's Carnivore Diet Could Be Your Ticket To Becoming A Shredded Beast But At What Cost? - DMARGE [Last Updated On: May 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 24th, 2020]
- Why Hungarys Viktor Orbn is the American rights favorite strongman - Vox.com [Last Updated On: May 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 24th, 2020]
- The one ACC team Michael Jordan wanted to beat most while at North Carolina - Sporting News [Last Updated On: May 24th, 2020] [Originally Added On: May 24th, 2020]
- PGA Tour: Colonial right now wont have fans even though Texas says it... - Golf.com [Last Updated On: June 1st, 2020] [Originally Added On: June 1st, 2020]
- BOOKS Preaching to the converted? - Morning Star Online [Last Updated On: June 1st, 2020] [Originally Added On: June 1st, 2020]
- 'Things fall apart': the apocalyptic appeal of WB Yeats's The Second Coming - The Guardian [Last Updated On: June 1st, 2020] [Originally Added On: June 1st, 2020]
- Patrick Peterson sees 'championship-caliber team from top to bottom' in Cardinals - Cards Wire [Last Updated On: June 1st, 2020] [Originally Added On: June 1st, 2020]
- Jordan Peterson on the Resurrection | Adrian Warnock - Patheos [Last Updated On: June 1st, 2020] [Originally Added On: June 1st, 2020]
- Here are some ways your family can manage the stress of the pandemic - KGUN [Last Updated On: June 1st, 2020] [Originally Added On: June 1st, 2020]
- Quick Hits: Commish on the Cardinals | St. Louis Cardinals - STLtoday.com [Last Updated On: June 20th, 2020] [Originally Added On: June 20th, 2020]
- New troopers receive badges and take oath for NSP Friday - knopnews2 [Last Updated On: June 20th, 2020] [Originally Added On: June 20th, 2020]
- The best way to teach critical thinking - Daily Trust [Last Updated On: June 20th, 2020] [Originally Added On: June 20th, 2020]
- Speaking truth to power - Winnipeg Free Press [Last Updated On: June 20th, 2020] [Originally Added On: June 20th, 2020]
- Gwich'in Tribal Council election to go ahead this summer - CBC.ca [Last Updated On: June 21st, 2020] [Originally Added On: June 21st, 2020]
- What are the Gilbert mayor and council races about? What to know before you vote - AZCentral [Last Updated On: July 21st, 2020] [Originally Added On: July 21st, 2020]
- The One Time Michael Jordan Wore Another Player's Shoes in an NBA Game - Sportscasting [Last Updated On: July 21st, 2020] [Originally Added On: July 21st, 2020]
- 5 Celebrities Who Got Really Sick After Going on an All-Meat Diet - One Green Planet [Last Updated On: September 19th, 2020] [Originally Added On: September 19th, 2020]
- What is cultural Marxism and is it really taking over universities everywhere? - Scroll.in [Last Updated On: September 19th, 2020] [Originally Added On: September 19th, 2020]
- To My Son: Men Have to Allow Ourselves to Be Loved - The Atlantic [Last Updated On: September 19th, 2020] [Originally Added On: September 19th, 2020]
- Heiresses on the Barricades - City Journal [Last Updated On: September 19th, 2020] [Originally Added On: September 19th, 2020]
- Peterson takes three games from Boerne South | Other Sports - Community journal [Last Updated On: October 27th, 2020] [Originally Added On: October 27th, 2020]
- The numbers that prove Meteorettes are something special - Daily Mercury [Last Updated On: October 27th, 2020] [Originally Added On: October 27th, 2020]
- Welcome back, Jordan Peterson we need you more than ever - The Conservative Woman [Last Updated On: October 27th, 2020] [Originally Added On: October 27th, 2020]
- Fagan: LaFrance weaves a tangled web; deception her only path to victory - Must Read Alaska [Last Updated On: October 27th, 2020] [Originally Added On: October 27th, 2020]
- Jordan Peterson Back Home, 'With God's Grace and Mercy' Resumes Life - The Federalist [Last Updated On: October 27th, 2020] [Originally Added On: October 27th, 2020]
- Jordan Peterson and the Return of Solzhenitsyn - Merion West [Last Updated On: October 27th, 2020] [Originally Added On: October 27th, 2020]
- The Government's Reckless Student Lending is Creating a Budget Hole Akin to the 2008 Crisis, New Analysis Shows | Brad Polumbo - Foundation for... [Last Updated On: November 29th, 2020] [Originally Added On: November 29th, 2020]
- The ghost of Lady Chatterley's lover protecting today's feeble-minded - Sydney Morning Herald [Last Updated On: November 29th, 2020] [Originally Added On: November 29th, 2020]
- Publish and be damned. Don't publish and be damned - Sydney Morning Herald [Last Updated On: November 29th, 2020] [Originally Added On: November 29th, 2020]
- Why Jordan Peterson's Message on Gratitude Is More Important Than Ever | Jon Miltimore - Foundation for Economic Education [Last Updated On: November 29th, 2020] [Originally Added On: November 29th, 2020]
- Letters to the editor: Jordan Peterson's publisher mustn't give an inch to 'wokeflakes' - National Post [Last Updated On: November 29th, 2020] [Originally Added On: November 29th, 2020]
- Freedom of speech at universities is not under threat it is actually thriving - The Independent [Last Updated On: December 19th, 2020] [Originally Added On: December 19th, 2020]
- Sator Trailer Reveals a Deeply Horrifying Hybrid of Fiction and Fact - Collider [Last Updated On: December 19th, 2020] [Originally Added On: December 19th, 2020]
- How to Talk to Your QAnon Family During the Holidays - VICE [Last Updated On: December 19th, 2020] [Originally Added On: December 19th, 2020]
- You Can't Beat COVID-19 With Diet, No Matter What the Internet Tells You - Lifehacker [Last Updated On: December 19th, 2020] [Originally Added On: December 19th, 2020]
- Hari Kunzru's Novel Red Pill Is a Literary Document of the Age of the Alt-Right - Jacobin magazine [Last Updated On: December 19th, 2020] [Originally Added On: December 19th, 2020]
- Stressed times call for reassurance - The New Indian Express [Last Updated On: December 19th, 2020] [Originally Added On: December 19th, 2020]