What Should Be Done About the Police? – The New York Times

Bret Stephens: Hi, Gail. A question I never thought Id ask: Should we abolish the police?

Gail Collins: Bret, I kinda think thats stacking the deck. Should we reform the police? Set new standards? Totally rethink their role? Im good to go anywhere except the a-word.

Bret: I was struck by an Op-Ed by Mariame Kaba we ran this weekend that went all the way with the a-word: It was called, Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish the Police. Personally, I think the idea is nuts: The world is filled with a lot of terrible people who do terrible things and wouldnt be better people if only they met with a social worker twice a week. And Im not just talking about the president.

But what I mainly found interesting about the piece is that it represents a growing constituency of activists and voters who think that reform isnt enough, that another recommendation-making blue-ribbon commission on police violence wont accomplish anything, and that policing in America is so rotten and racist that it needs to be gotten rid of, root and branch.

Gail: Well, one could argue that the chances of getting very serious, major league, radical reform are a whole lot better if the other side thinks the alternative is abolition.

Bret: I guess radicalism might induce the police to make some long-resisted changes, especially when it comes to police unions protecting bad cops from discipline and dismissal. The other possibility is that abolish-the-police radicalism gives Donald Trump a terrific foil to run against in the fall.

Gail: Well, Joe Biden has already said he isnt in favor of defunding or abolishing the police. Trump may try to pin it on him anyway, but one advantage of having Biden at the top of the ticket is that almost nobody imagines him doing anything dramatic.

Bret: To adapt a line from George W. Bush, its the soft benefit of low expectations.

Gail: Nevertheless, theres a lot that needs doing. Particularly when it comes to the blue wall that shields officers who behave badly. Cops almost always stick up for other cops, no matter how bad things get. Making citizen complaint records public would be a good first step toward attacking that.

Bret: Good idea.

Gail: And its true that there are a lot of jobs cops do that could be performed by others. For instance, people are wondering whether policing the schools couldnt be done better by specially trained civilians.

How about you? What would your reform agenda be?

Bret: Id definitely get the police out of social work. And the police shouldnt need to be called when your neighbors Halloween party gets too loud. As for getting the police out of schools, fine by me, provided the specially trained civilians you mention are competent to deal with an emergency like a school shooting.

Gail: Youve just given me a little opening to point out that the best thing we can do for public safety on all fronts is a nationwide gun law that keeps weapons out of the hands of anyone who hasnt passed a shooting skills test and government vetting.

Bret: Sure, except that the more people there are who call to abolish the police, the likelier many others are to go and buy a gun. A few years ago, I wrote a column calling for the repeal of the Second Amendment. The whole idea is predicated on a robust police force that keeps our streets safe. Now Im having second thoughts about that column.

Gail: Stick with us!

Bret: More broadly, while I recognize theres a serious problem with heavy-handed and trigger-happy police as we horrifically saw yet again in Atlanta over the weekend Im just not onboard with the idea that the police are some kind of urban scourge. Im grateful to live in a city where the murder rate is down by about 90 percent from 30 years ago, thanks in large part to the work of great cops like Ray Kelly. Im grateful that the N.Y.P.D. has helped make the city an almost impossibly hard target for terrorists. The great majority of police officers are hard-working, brave, public-spirited, working-class men and women of every race and ethnicity tasked with some very unpleasant but essential jobs. And while the police obviously need to reform not least so that they are not viewed with fear and distrust by communities theyre meant to serve nobodys going to be well served if their budgets are slashed and reputations smeared just because they are in blue.

Gail: There are a lot of reasons for New Yorks murder rate plummeting. One very big one is the aging of the population. Another is the end of the crack epidemic.

But a great commissioner can make a huge difference. I knew one, a good friend, who used to say that the most important job of a police force is keeping apart people who hate each other.

Bret: You mean, like Melania and Donald? Sorry, go on.

Gail: Meanwhile, its interesting to see how this latest crisis has got the sports community embracing the idea of taking a knee. I think thats great something that was so wildly controversial is now looking like a useful nonviolent protest.

Bret: Ive always defended the right of athletes or anyone else to take a knee. Its a free country, and I generally admire anyone who takes an unpopular stand (or knee) out of a deeply held belief. The question is whether the knee-taking is truly sincere. There seems to me something forced or gestural about it now; more about social posturing than personal conviction. And I wonder what it will mean for our politics as a whole. If Isaac Newton were a pundit today, he might say that every action in American politics has an equal and opposite overreaction.

Gail: Well, its sort of the way things are supposed to work, right? Some people take an unpopular public stance to call attention to a terrible social problem. They suffer the consequences for a while, but they eventually convince many, many others of the righteousness of their cause. Then their colleagues feel compelled to join in, because otherwise they might lose popularity.

Bret: Fair point. In the meantime, Gail, coronavirus cases seem to be rising in Sunbelt states. Do you think the country is ready for a second lockdown?

Gail: Lord, that would be awful. Shocking that so many governors are afraid of telling their people to put on masks and make some sacrifices now for the long-term common good. Of course, its all about Donald Trump. Cant believe hes holding a mass rally he clearly cares less about the health of his supporters than getting his adulation fix.

Bret: Im tempted to say that if Trumps rally-goers want to take those risks, out of moral conviction or epidemiological ignorance, theyre welcome to do so. Of course, theres this little matter of them spreading it to those who share neither their beliefs nor their level of ignorance.

Gail: The president actually wasnt looking too good at his West Point appearance. If he came down with the virus, would you be quietly gleeful, or are you a better person than that?

Bret: The thought that these stoical cadets had to quarantine for two weeks for the honor of hearing their commander in chief praise himself and exaggerate his accomplishments is, in its small way, all you ever need to know about Trump. But really, Gail, I dont wish the coronavirus on anyone, even this president. Maybe just a really painful bone spur.

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What Should Be Done About the Police? - The New York Times