J. Harrison Ghee and Alex Newell on Making Tony History – TIME

One morning in early May, J. Harrison Ghee and Alex Newell made history as the first nonbinary-identifying actors to be nominated for Tony Awards. The night before the nominations were announced was the first time that either performer had attended the Met Galaor, as Newell calls it, our Tony nominee party. A couple weeks later, the pair met with TIME together in a Midtown caf close to both of their theaters to discuss the nominations, Ghee for Best Leading Actor in a Musical for their role as Jerry/Daphne in Some Like It Hot and Newell for Best Featured Actor in a Musical for their role as Lulu in Shucked.

Neither are newcomers to Broadway. Ghee made their debut as Lola (a drag queen who helps save a failing shoe factory) in Kinky Boots in 2017, and Newell made theirs the same year as Asaka (the Earth goddess) in Once on This Island. (The two go way back, having met at a performance of Kinky Boots.) This year, Some Like It Hot and Shucked were also both nominated for Best New Musical, meaning that Ghee and Newell originated their roles on-stage, and can make them their own.

Those roles feel tailor-made to their performers: In Shucked, Lulu is a small-town whiskey distiller who brings down the house with a standing ovation in the middle of Act I with Independently Owned, a show-stopper about not needing a man.

Newell says they are learning from Lulu about gradually opening up. That in my own independent life, there is something else to have, there is another person to be had, that can meld, mesh well into this independent life that I live.

And in Some Like It Hot, based on the 1959 Billy Wilder film that starred Marilyn Monroe, Tony Curtis, and Jack Lemmon, two musicians, Jerry (Ghee) and Joe (Christian Borle), must flee Chicago after witnessing a mob hit. They go undercover in drag, joining a traveling all-girl band, but Jerry, the bass player, finds himself drawn to his newfound persona as Daphne.

Of course, doing Some Like It Hot and bringing men in dresses back to Broadway, everybody has feelings, Ghee says. So theyre concerned about how its going to be perceived and received. And there were moments where I was like, cant we just be artists and create?

In conversation, Gheein a black, strappy, leather top and pleated miniskirtand Newellwearing a white, puff-sleeved top and a set of feathery lashesvamp and riff and ricochet off of each other, toggling seamlessly between thoughtful and funny. They discussed their characters, who their art serves, and what winning really means.

This interview has been edited for concision and clarity.

Alex Newell belts during rehearsal for 'Shucked' at a studio space in midtown Manhattan.

'Shucked'Emilio Madrid

Ghee: You know how to make the church go up in a way of, Im using what I got today. Using the gift. So it is definitely such a formative way of learning yourself as an artist.

Newell: And your instrument in general. You create your own style in church. The fact that gospel and hymns have their own diaspora inside a genre, that we can have a Lecresia Campbell giving us operatic tones into a belt, and we can have pop from Mary Mary. Thats that artistry of finding yourself and your voice.

Ghee: When I started doing drag, I used to say I never imagined myself doing it, which was a complete bold-faced lie. I was young Lola playing in my moms clothes as a kid, and using blankets as trains and making dresses. And so it was me tapping back into the little version of me, and that freest, most imaginative person, and having complete creative control of how I can be effective with my gifts.

Because Im always trying to be intentional with everything that I do, and especially with drag, and so it was my way of: How am I ministering to people? How am I reaching hearts and souls and minds through this artistry? So it really helped me free myself in every way.

Newell: Well, you know, I wasnt in drag ever until I won RuPauls Secret Celebrity Drag Race. No, I guess I never knew what drag was for so long, because I didnt know what I was doing when I was putting on my mamas heels and tromping around the house. Honey, I cried the day my foot went past a seven. I cried.

Newell: Very different. I always say drag is appreciating the womans body, in a way. And appreciating what life started out of. To appreciate our moms and our idols and all of that good stuff, and to really exaggerate the beauty of that form and that art.

Newell: Ill be honest, Im tired. I am exhausted. Mine is particularly strange, because I do the opening number, I have a 40-minute break, and when I come back on stage, its the number. Im just like, Ah! And its such a big thing from zero. I just jump in and feel like Im shot out of a cannon.

Ghee: By that time, Im warm. Im working towards that point in the show. And there are shows where Im like, Where am I pulling this from today? But I get into it and it is that giving into Daphne and that freedom to find the joy every time. And it cracks a part of me open every time.

Ghee: Changes every day. And I love it. I love being able to step in and be like, OK, what am I finding today? For them and for myself. What kind of freedom? What kind of joy? And bringing myself to the day in the moment, and then also leaving space for exploration and uniqueness. Very intentional of, like, Oh, this is very close to home and purpose-driven. But then also, how do I expand within this?

Newell: When Lulus singing the song, it is male-driven, about how this independent woman has done everything without a man. Ive done the same exact thing. I havent had a partner thats attached to me. Its just been me. And half of that creates a callus over the emotion of not needing anyone.

But then knowing that its OK to want it and to have it. It is OK to be independent and still have the things that everybody else does. I mean, there is the one line. Its so small, it happens so fast. And its, There might be someone that I aint met yet.

Newell: Well, you know, I modeled my Lulu off of Delta Burke and Julia Sugarbaker. Im the hybrid of both of them on Designing Women. And its me but heightened in the fact that I am loud. I am very outspoken. But I do have a filter, which is shocking to most. I do think about what Im going to say. Lulu does not. Lulu, if it comes up, it comes out.

Ghee: The creative team really trusted me and gave me the space to go. They really were like, We defer to you.

When I say to Christian [Borle, who plays Joe/Josephine] in Act II, when hes like, What do I call you? Jerry? Daphne? And Im like, Either is fine, as long as you do it with love and respect. When people ask me my pronouns, I say, All things, with respect. I understand that the world is conditioned to respond to what they see. So theyre always going to immediately say he/him. But I dont expect you to know what I am feeling and what I am carrying that day. And what Im presenting doesnt necessarily attach to what I am. And I walk in the fullness of who I am at all times.

J. Harrison Ghee performs as Daphne in 'Some Like It Hot.'

Marc J. Franklin

Newell: You dont see it coming.

Ghee: Truly.

Newell: You dont see that youre gonna laugh about something that you need to fix.

Ghee: One of my favorites is when Kevin [Del Aguila, who plays Daphnes love interest] says in the show, The world responds to what they see. And everyones like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then, Well, the world doesnt have very good eyesight. And youre like, Ah. Oh, right. Thats very true. In so many ways.

Newell: Ours is just blatant. Our Plan B joke is blatant. Maizie [Lulus cousin], she needs to find a plan B. Even though most people are trying to put a stop to Plan B. No ones expecting to laugh for two hours and then hear a joke like that. And literally say, Heres the mirror. If you feel uncomfortable, youre the problem.

Newell: Baby, I dont know. The change itself is an extremely hard one to make. Because if we sit here and we talk about why the categories were separated at the beginning, it was to give other people than cis white men awards. And we did take gender off of some awards in the U.K., and the only thing that won was cis white men. And I said, Ooh, we just went right back to where we started. So I dont know what that looks like. Its a deeper conversation. I think its adding a category, widening the horizon of the category.

Ghee: Weve got to free ourselves to see ourselves. We really got to give ourselves the permission to be like, You know what, we can do whatever we want to do. We do shape society and culture. Lets be ahead of that, and let us make the room and the space for everybody at the table to do all of the things.

Newell: In my spirit, Ive already won. Not a statue, not anything. I created a lane for somebody after me to come and do exceptional. I have created space and created conversation and made the ruckus that needs to create active change. If I win, yay, Ill put the statue in my bathroom. And Ill play with it every time I brush my teeth. And Id love it.

Ghee: But it is exciting to see so many people feeling seen and represented who are like, Wow, thank you. I didnt know that there was any possibility for me in this world. And I know that feeling of moving to New York. I wasnt a theater kid growing up. I grew up singing in church. And so it was like, well, I sing and dance and people respond; theater sounds right. Let me go try this out. And then to find Billy Porters album of At the Corner of Broadway and Soul, I was like, Whoa, there is somebody in this industry I can

Newell: See! And be!

Ghee: Something to look up to. So to now be that for somebody else? Again, the winning is already happening.

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J. Harrison Ghee and Alex Newell on Making Tony History - TIME