Edward Snowden was given no script approval, nor did he receive any payment for Snowden, says director Oliver Stone. His new movie tells the story of the former NSA operative and how he came to reveal that the U.S. government was secretly monitoring domestic telephone calls.
The 69-year-old filmmaker and renegade met after Snowden's Russian lawyer "contacted me because he wanted to sell me his book, which he had written about Snowden," said Stone. "But it was a fictional book. He had fictionalized it. And it was an interesting Russian novel. Very Dostoevsky. Really it's about a young man from America who comes over and reveals a 1984 world. I didn't know at that point in time whether we were going to make a fictional movie with an unnamed character, or else we would make the story as realistic as possible about Snowden, because I didn't know if Snowden would cooperate."
The lawyer arranged a meeting in Moscow, in a secure place that Stone would not reveal. At first, he said, Snowden was wary. "I don't think he was comfortable with the idea of a movie at that point. He's into reality and the concept of a movie is so foreign to him. I think he had seen a piece of The Untold History of the United States, which I'd done. That was that 12-part series. And I think he was impressed with it."
After more meetings took place, Stone said, Snowden began to thaw. "[He] got warmer. It took time." In the end, he agreed to take part because "he accepted in his heart that a movie would get made," Stone noted. "And he said that it was sort of an inevitability about a movie getting made, that he doesn't have any rights because he's in exile, and so forth and so on."
The three-time Oscar winner behind such movies as Platoon, Born on the Fourth of July and Wall Street, blamed the studios' corporate ownership for the fact that none agreed to finance the picture. "The biggest problem in the end turned out to be the self-censorship of scared American corporations," Stone said. "And that's the truth about our society. At the price we were offering, and the script the way it was, it's very hard to believe [that there wasn't] a political factor [in denying the project financing]."
Stone was interviewed Aug. 26 at Loyola Marymount University's School of Film and Television, where he was the first guest in the sixth season of the Hollywood Masters interview series. Other guests this season will include actors Annette Bening, Ewan McGregor and Andrew Garfield, producer Brian Grazer, Fox TV executive Dana Walden, and French superstar Isabelle Huppert.
In a wide-ranging conversation about his work, Stone also recalled working with Donald Trump in a scene for Wall Street that subsequently was deleted from the movie.
"He was good," said Stone. "I have no complaint. There were a lot of demands. I mean, he had two pages of prerequisites: You couldn't shoot him from this side, that side. But I talked to him, and he's a charming man in person. As an actor, he was stunning. You know, we did take one with Michael [Douglas] and [Trump] talking in a barbershop. And he jumped up after the take and he said, 'Wasn't that great?'" In the end, Stone chose to cut the scene. "It was too late and too little for where we were, at that point in the movie. And I wasn't thinking about his future presidency I was just dealing with an editing issue. I should have left it in probably."
An edited transcript of the interview follows.
STEPHEN GALLOWAYJune 1971. You had been at NYU Film School for a couple of years. Learning from Martin Scorsese, among others.
OLIVER STONEAmong others. Yeah.
GALLOWAY And now you are out in the cold world. Nobody knows who you are. You have just made a short film, which, by the way, you can see on YouTube. It's very good, about Vietnam. What is your thinking about your career and what you want to do with the rest of your life?
STONE It was more like a starvation diet at that point. There was no choice involved. You could either choose to go on, or else you drop out. A lot of people did. They realized that there was no real business, so to speak, you know, when you formally get hired. During our school year, the last year, all of us had been trying to do things. I had worked at Channel 13, and those days, that was the WNET. I think it was the public station. I'd worked on a wonderful novel that was filmed with a bunch of actors like Cornelia Otis Skinner, Gary Merrill, old timers. And it was great. Jack Gilford. It was a great experience to be a PA. And various things like that. I had been a cab driver, night time, and I went more and more into cab driving when I graduated. Night times in New York. That was an experience.
GALLOWAY Was that a good or bad experience?
STONE It was both. (Laughs.) Both. But you know, over the next three, four years, there were no jobs. I kept writing scripts and getting the jobs that I could. Worked on a porno film as an associate producer.
GALLOWAY What was the name of the porno film?
STONE Carrying dollies up four, five flights of stairs. In those days we
GALLOWAY Do you remember the name of the film?
STONE I'd rather forget it. (Laughter.)
GALLOWAY Go on. You know the name. (Laughter.)
STONE But there were things like that. And I got a job finally. One of the jobs I got that was pretty steady, and gave me a beautiful unemployment insurance, was at a sports film company making baseball films. They were contracted to Major League Baseball. And it was a good contract. But they wanted to expand into advertising. And I was not an expert at advertising. I wasn't very good at selling either, so I sold nothing practically for a year. But I pretended to sell or tried. But I was writing scripts mostly during that whole period in the back office and such. And I was unsuccessful as a scriptwriter, I have to tell you, but I kept at it. There must have been seven, eight, nine scripts in there. And treatments, long treatments. Always hopeful. Heartbreaking. Not read. Took forever to read. You know, I wanted to get them to people like Charles Bronson and Lee Marvin, and some of the actors. And it just wasn't working out. But of course, my choice of subject matter may have something to do with it. I don't know. But that business was tough. In the early '70s, it was very tough, because they weren't making as many movies I think. That was one of the problems. Really, it started to change in the early '80s, when the video revolution came in. That allowed those smaller films to be made that we have all seen in the years since. But it was a hard market. I ran into a couple of NYU graduates down at the garage where the taxis were. And all their grandiose dreams. Some of them had money. Some of them were shooting their own films with the money. It was tough.
GALLOWAY What did Scorsese teach you?
STONE It was one year, the first year. Basic production. And we made films that were primitive and crude. Basic motions. I would say, what they called Sight and Sound. That was the name of it. It was 60 seconds, film. You started with a black and white film, 16 mm, and then you worked your way up to five minutes, maybe. Or three minutes. And these were exercises, and generally Marty criticized them pretty well. I mean, he cared. He was passionate. But it was hopeless for him. It was a graveyard. He knew that. And I think he was writing or he was working on projects at that time. But he would come in dutifully every time we had the class. And you could see he hadn't slept very well at night. Because in those days, there was no [VCRs]. And older films were available on TV in the morning time, around 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock, 4 o'clock, you'd see the classics. And that was one of the few ways you could see older films. Unless you'd go to the theater up on 98th Street. So he would always be exhausted. He would talk a mile a minute. And it was hard to understand some of what he said.
GALLOWAY He talks incredibly quickly.
STONE Yeah. And I mean, his hair was down to here, and you could barely see his eyes in the morning. But he was a good teacher, and inspiring. You know, Haig Manoogian was there.
GALLOWAY The dean of the school.
STONE A lot of good teachers. My screenwriting class, I just have to say, was empty. The young people then did not really believe in writing. It was like, put the script together on the spot, like Jean-Luc Godard, go out and shoot. So I was surprised at the lack of attention to that discipline, which I loved, the old screenwriters.
GALLOWAY How did you learn to write? You had written a 1,400-page novel.
STONE I'd written a novel before, when I
GALLOWAY It wasn't published.
STONE Yeah. I was an older student. I came back from Vietnam at that point. And I had written a novel at 19, which was published 30 years later. It's called Child's Night Dream. And it's about being 19. So I cared about writing, but I had written a novel, and how to visualize it into a cinematic approach is a whole different ballgame.
GALLOWAY And so who taught you? Or where did you learn? From watching films? Or did somebody guide you?
STONE Well, that's what we were doing at NYU. You know, first of all, the concept was you can make films. I mean, you would take that for granted now, but back then it was a very special, exotic colony. You didn't join it that easily. And certainly anybody who went to Hollywood, like Marty went with AIP, I think, that was a big deal. We didn't have connections. Now it's changed. Back then, you had to get in by commercials if you could. Or the writing, [which] worked for me. And it took six years, seven years.
GALLOWAY You made two films, The Hand andSeizure, before you made the film that you consider your first feature, Salvador, which is still one of my favorite films of yours.
STONE Yeah. I love that one.
GALLOWAY What did you learn from the first two that helped you make the third one?
STONE Oh Years. I learned years, you know. The first one was a horror film, Seizure, in 1973. And I did it with very little money. And we had a tremendous amount of problems. It was a real first-time film effort. Very funny stories, of course, with Seizure. It was called Queen of Evil, but we had to change the title. Our film had many legal problems, and it was seized. I mean, I had to seize the film back from the cinematographer in Montreal. And I called the film Seizure. (Laughter.)
GALLOWAY How did you seize it back?
STONE Oh God. It's complicated. The Mounties were involved. Bills. I mean, we had a lot of unpaid bills and we had to sneak it across the border to show the work print. It was a nightmare. We finally got secured by Harold Greenberg, who was a gigantic whale of a man, who had the Bellevue Path Lab in Montreal. He basically swallowed the film, and it disappeared into a 42ndStreet double bill as a Cinerama release. But it's actually an interesting film, if you look at it. I don't know if you have seen it.
GALLOWAY I haven't. No.
STONE It was released on video. It's very interesting. It's similar to the theme of The Hand, which is basically an artist, a cartoonist, who has tremendous problems with his imagination. And he projects some of the worst nightmares possible. And it happens to him. Sort of a Cavalcanti film, Alberto Cavalcanti. Dead of Night. That kind of a thing.
GALLOWAY How have you changed as a director since then?
STONE More complex and more mature. I think better with using the camera, using the scenes, directing actors, in every way. I mean, you grow. You grow from your experience. You have to do it. And by the time I made Salvador, I'd been through a lot of heartbreak. I mean, I'd already won an Academy Award for [writing]Midnight Express in '79. And then had a rough spot with The Hand, because The Hand was actually an interesting movie. Again, but the producers were putting a tremendous amount of pressure on me to make it more of a horror film, and less of a psychological horror film. And that was a problem. I, you know, had to photograph the hand 100 different ways. It was an externalization of the character's inner life. And that was always what it was. It wasn't supposed to exist independently. But you know Hollywood. They want it to exist independently. But to have to shoot an object that's very small and make it dangerous is extremely difficult. It's like trying to make a mouse into an elephant. But I had Carlo Rambaldi doing special effects. Wonderfully precise man, but the only problem was he hated my DP, because he said my DP couldn't light his hands. And we had 50, 60 hands in there and we were trying to do very complex stuff. And we did some very good stuff. We still see it. But it was a very difficult film for a first feature, second feature.
GALLOWAY You mentioned Midnight Express, which became a very controversial film. [To the audience:] I don't know if you've seen it, but it's a film I love. Even before you were known as a director, you were known as the writer of Midnight Express, which offended a great part of the Turkish population. I think Amnesty International complained about its portrayal of Turks as villains. This is a story about Billy Hayes' experiences in a Turkish prison. Alan Parker, the director, has subsequently sort of apologized for the film. How do you feel about it?
STONE I've never apologized for it. I said, "I'm sorry about this misunderstanding." But this was a serious misunderstanding here. This film, for me, was based on injustice everywhere. And it was a worldwide issue. Certainly, in the United States. I had been in prison briefly, but it was a horrifying experience. For a drug, federal smuggling charge. And a lot of that passion went into the screenplay. And I felt that the it was really the early drug war. I felt that this treatment of people who were taking drugs was outrageous and still do. Very angry about it. And I made a film about it, too, at one point called Savages, later.
GALLOWAY Which I love.
STONE But this was an early reflection of that. And I made a speech at the Golden Globes, which I had won that year. And I was saying, "This is not about Turkey. This is about the United States. When you people who make television shows here in the United States are always doing the same cliche. You're glorifying the cop. And you're making the drug dealer something evil and much worse than he is." And I got booed off the stage.
GALLOWAY Wow. Really?
STONE Well, I was high, frankly, but (Laughter.) My publicist tried for years to destroy the tape, but I think it still exists. And I know it does.
GALLOWAY When you were in prison, they found two ounces of marijuana on you or something?
STONE Something like that. Yeah.
GALLOWAY Were you in prison in San Diego?
STONE Oh, we have to go to that! Yeah. You like the interesting juicy stuff, but
GALLOWAY I knew you would knock me for that, but you know it's interesting. So since I'm asking that question, tell us about it.
STONE Which one?
GALLOWAY About that prison experience.
STONE Oh, come on. Really?
GALLOWAY Of course.
STONE We're talking about movies, not
GALLOWAY [To audience:] You want to know about this?
AUDIENCEYes!
STONE I was coming back from Mexico, and I had just come back from Vietnam, about seven days. Hadn't even called my parents to tell them I was back. I was really one of those guys from Vietnam who was coming back from a lot of combat. And I was taking psychedelics at that point, just trying to get used to the world again. But it wasn't a world that I had recognized. And the experience of veterans coming back, you know, was difficult. So I left the country. And partied in Mexico. And came back, and I was arrested [in San Diego]. And it was scary, because there were two judges. One was a five- to 20-year[s in prison] judge, and the other one was a parole judge, who would give you five years on parole, you know, and you wouldn't even serve. So it was like, "What day do you go up in front of the judge?" And there was no representation. They never came at that point. The prisons in San Diego were feeling the early drug war. And it was overcrowded. Three times too many inmates. It was a very eye-opening experience, and another side of America that I had never seen before. So between the infantry and the prison, and between the Merchant Marine I started to see the world in a different way than I'd grown up.
GALLOWAY You said something interesting, which most people wouldn't think. And you just mentioned this was a scary experience. You said a lot of what you were dealing with when you were young was fear, and that you yourself still deal with fear, and you're still afraid.
STONE Ha. When did I say that to you?
GALLOWAY You didn't say it to me. I think you said it in the book [The Oliver Stone Experience].
STONE Gosh. This is a very good journalist, I have to tell you. (Laughter.) This man, he digs.
GALLOWAY Thank you. Tell us about that.
STONE I have to say, I was shocked when you told me you read this book, which just came out. Because you know, it's a big book, and you really prepared. [To audience:] But he's taken you far ahead and far deeper into things that you may not understand of
GALLOWAY I appreciate that. But let's not avoid the question. Fear. Do you still feel that?
STONE Yes. I do. I do. I think that's an inherent quality in all people. I mean, I think it's a fear that's deeper now than it ever was. Sure. But I've come to terms with it. It's a beast that you face every day. And being older gives me some advantages over it.
GALLOWAY By the way, the other thing you said that was interesting, you gave the commencement address at the University of Connecticut, I think in May. And you said, "I've been to four colleges." Yale, from which you dropped out. NYU. I think the third one was Hollywood, but the fourth one was the College of Older Age.
STONE Yeah.
GALLOWAY And that really interested me. Because you have mellowed somewhat, I think. True?
STONE Yes. (Laughter.)
GALLOWAY You may elaborate.
STONE You know, this is very personal stuff. I feel like you're a psychiatrist.
GALLOWAY (Laughs.) And I promised your assistant I wasn't going to go down this path
STONE I don't even know you and
GALLOWAY Let's go back to the film that really put you on the map. And I'm going to show an excerpt from this truly brilliant film. Be warned. It's a very violent scene, but it's an extraordinary film. Watching it again is even better than when I saw it when it came out. So let's take a look at a sequence from Platoon.
[CLIP]
[APPLAUSE]
STONE That's a strong scene.
GALLOWAY How do you feel watching it?
STONE Whew. I feel terrible. What do you want me to say? I mean, it's not a pretty scene, but it's accurate, not in the exact details, but it's a condensation of many of the things that happened over there. And happen in every war that we're fighting since World War II, it seems. And maybe even then. You know, when you're in a country that you're not invited into, and you're white, and it's a Third World country, the infantry gets very divided, and whatever they say about "Support the troops," you know, the truth is some of the troops should not be supported. People go over there and they get out their anxieties and their fears, and they blame anybody outside themselves. They don't look in. And they look out. And they often take it out on people who have no ability to speak the language and so forth and so on. In some cases, invalids and people who are stupid, or ... retarded, mentally challenged. And it happened in some form to me. And there was a guy like this guy Kevin Dillon plays who existed in the platoon I was in. No names, but there were all kinds of acts of homicide that were done not overtly, and not in front of officers, but that happened like in a situation like that. Where it would be covered up by a cowardly sergeant who was a bully. You saw the sergeant, the John C.McGinley character.
GALLOWAY In fact, he's in four of your films
STONE This brings it all together. And it also, one detail that you should remember. In these situations and this is like true for Iraq and Afghanistan when you go to these places, these villages, they are often collaborating with the enemy. Yes. Why not? Because they are in an impossible situation. They're getting pressure from the insurgent side or the native side. They're getting a lot of pressure. And here comes the U.S. And here we are saying, "You got to work with us." And then guys get very pissed off because they find supplies in those villages. Or let's say they know where the booby traps are, this, that. There's 100 ways you can collaborate. They collaborate because they have no choice. They're in the middle of a mess.
GALLOWAY You were 21 when you went to Vietnam. You volunteered. I think you actually missed your 21stbirthday because you crossed the international dateline.
STONE Yeah. I got robbed. (Laughter.) But I stay forever young.
GALLOWAY What possessed you to do that?
STONE Possessed me? Well, you've read the book [The Oliver Stone Experience] Obviously, I was a bit like Ron Kovic, a lot like Ron Kovic. I believed in the fight against communism. My father had been Republican. I grew up conservative. And in 1950s New York, you had to believe that the communist conspiracy was about to engulf the United States. You just had to. That was the way we were raised. And it was all-American. It was very much like it is now in a certain sense. Engaged in a cold war in which we certainly invented the enemy, or exaggerated him to the point at which he was, as Joe McCarthy said, you know, about to take over our government and all this stuff. And we went to that war, many of us, in that belief. I was completely alienated and shocked when I returned and didn't know where I was. Took me a while to straighten, to get back into society. Going back to NYU Film School about nine months later was part of it. It was a very shaky time. Talk about fear. We had a lot of fear, you know, about life, about coming back to American society that you don't recognize. Nobody cared about Vietnam. I mean, only the poor went there. I mean, I would say in the officer class, and most of the young people did not go. They had deferments. So you're not dealing with your own people. You don't have that camaraderie. No one understands what you're doing over there. They think it's a bummer. They think it's lost time. And too bad, you know. Move on.
GALLOWAY You were pretty badly wounded in Vietnam. You were shot I think in the neck. And you still have shrapnel there?
STONE I was not seriously wounded, thank God. I was hit twice, yes. And both times I was scared. Yeah. First time I thought I was going to die because there was a lot of blood, in the neck. And the second time I got blown up by a satchel charge. And I'm OK. But I got out of the field briefly, and I stayed out for a while, but I couldn't stand the rear, and I ended up getting into I go into the details in this book. But I always had problems with authority in the army, you know, because you're being bossed around by people like John McGinley, stuff like that. So I ended up back in the field. They were going to Article 15 me, which is put me basically in detention, and put me in a jail there. Another jail. And then I would extend my stay. I'd come out of jail, and I'd have to go back to the field for the same amount of time.
GALLOWAY God.
STONE You know, they really think it through. It was called LBJ, the prison.
GALLOWAY Wow. (Laughs.)
STONE It was named Long Binh Jail, but LBJ were the initials for Lyndon Johnson, who was the antihero of the time. Anyway...
GALLOWAY Are you still anti-authority?
STONE You bet. (Laughter.) You bet.
GALLOWAY That's interesting. Is there any authority that you're not anti?
STONE I've been having problems with that through my whole life, as you can tell from my films and some of my documentaries, too. I really think that we don't think for ourselves. I think many of us are sleepwalking. Many of us buy the lies. So I tend to be contrary and think for myself as much as possible. And sometimes I don't. But I was going back to something you said earlier, but I forgot what it was.
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Oliver Stone on Edward Snowden: "America Is Fed Bullshit and ...
