Brd Vegar Solhjell (BV): So as you know by now I have been trying to contact you for quite some time

Edward Snowden (ES): Yes, I know. I am so sorry. It has been very difficult to handle communication. For someone in my position, being watched, being tracked, there are a lot of things that one has to do to manage to keep ones physical location protected, and at the same time being able to interact with the global community and being able to communicate. That is very difficult in the technical sense. It also causes you to stop and think about, not only how can I tackle this to fix my immediate problems, to have these calls, work, discuss a certain issue in a certain form or event. But how can we apply these lessons to help other people? I have quite a lot of technical knowledge but there are so many journalists and activists and even people in government, who do not have these capabilities and therefore they are left out of the conversation entirely because they cannot find secure methods of communications. Or they do participate, but at their own risk which can be very dangerous. Thats my long way of saying I am so sorry that I have been so difficult to get a hold of.

BV: If there is one think I totally understand after reading about your story, interviews with you and other sources, it is that you are careful with security and how you communicate with people. And let me also say, on a more personal note, that the personal sacrifice you have made is immense. I did not know this when I started reading about you as a person and what you had been able to convey to world. I just have to say that I admire you for that. I dont think many of us would be able or willing to do what you have done. That must have been really tough.

ES: Thank you. It was a challenge. In my position I felt like I had witnessed something that was tremendously wrong and there were many other people around me who had the same feeling. I discussed this with my colleagues, co-workers and my supervisors, complained about this and said: Is this really right? Is this what we should be doing? Other people also brought the same concerns to me. So it was common knowledge within the NSA that we had crossed the line. We had gone too far. But everybody knew that there was no strong whistle blower protection at the time. There was no way to bring it to the higher levels and get it changed, without ending up in jail. So everybody around me, many were young parents and like everybody else they had things that they cared about, that they could not justify leaving. I had the same struggle. I was with my partner of almost 10 years. I loved her very much. We were really successful. We had our own home in Hawaii. The lifestyle was very fulfilling and I was making a lot of money for someone who did not have very many official qualifications.

But it got to the point where I had to think about the fact that if I didnt do this, who would? And if I dont do this now, what happens next? Because what we have seen the last year/ year and a half is not merely that these systems exist. But they have caused a lot of harm to basically the boundary of our rights, what we consider our national liberties, and the normal relationship we have between our governments and us, the citizens that are being governed. These programs appeared without any public debate. They appeared without vote in the peoples parliaments and congresses around the world. The question to me became, that if I sit on this and do not say anything about it now and just wait for someone else to do it - which is what I was really hoping for, nobody really wants to stand up and put themselves on the spot - what will happen? What if no one does and we wait another 3/ 5/ 10 years and these programs become more solidified? And ultimately it became to me a question, not about surveillance - which was my initial main concern, the abuse that I witnessed - but more importantly it was a change in the relationship between the governing and the governed. It really was about the structure of our society changing, the structure of our freedoms changing. And ultimately, if I did not do that, it would not only alter the world that I would live in, but the world the people I loved lived in, the partner of mine of 10 years and my family. And I do not want them to live in a world where these things take place.

I realized that I could change this. I could say something about it, but I was also thinking that it was going to cost me too much, so this was something that someone else would have to do. Obviously, yes it has had costs, but it has also brought me a deep sense of satisfaction. My family is proud of me. I have been able to keep all of the relationships I had, I do not feel like I have lost any. So it has actually been liberating to put myself out there. To be attacked by my government, but supported by my people. Because when I actually took the step out there I feared that I would be totally vilified, which we saw happen previously, particularly in government circles, even in Europe. The accusations came: I am a traitor. I work for the Chinese. Then I left China and they said: well he works for the Russians, not the Chinese. But it is really incredible to see that people are starting to look a little more critically, a little more deeply, at these issues. Not just about surveillance and how we are being watched, but about how we are being ruled. The question is: do we want leaders who represent us, or do we want rulers, who make decisions for us in our name, but without our participation, our knowledge or consent? I have made my decision about that.

BV: It is almost moving to hear you say that, and it reminds me of the many great human right activists I have met throughout the years. All of them had been in a situation where they knew something was wrong and had a deep sense that they should do something about it. Most times a lot of people shared that sense, but only a few have that extra courage to make the sacrifice themselves. It is impressive and inspiring to hear that you were actually able to take that step. And as you probably already know I, together with a colleague, nominated you to the Nobel Peace Prize.

ES: I never expected anything like that. It came as a tremendous surprise and it is a tremendous honor. I have to say that we both probably recognize that it is somewhat unlikely that the Nobel committee would back something like that but..

BV: You are not the odds favorite I can tell you that.

ES: Right. But I am honored that anybody would consider nominating me, particularly someone like you who represents so many people. Because again, it is not about me, it is about us, and the values that we represent. It is about the principles of how we want to live. So, all I can say is thank you.

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Bård Vegar Solhjells dialogue with Edward Snowden

Brd Vegar Solhjell (BV): So as you know by now I have been trying to contact you for quite some time

Edward Snowden (ES): Yes, I know. I am so sorry. It has been very difficult to handle communication. For someone in my position, being watched, being tracked, there are a lot of things that one has to do to manage to keep ones physical location protected, and at the same time being able to interact with the global community and being able to communicate. That is very difficult in the technical sense. It also causes you to stop and think about, not only how can I tackle this to fix my immediate problems, to have these calls, work, discuss a certain issue in a certain form or event. But how can we apply these lessons to help other people? I have quite a lot of technical knowledge but there are so many journalists and activists and even people in government, who do not have these capabilities and therefore they are left out of the conversation entirely because they cannot find secure methods of communications. Or they do participate, but at their own risk which can be very dangerous. Thats my long way of saying I am so sorry that I have been so difficult to get a hold of.

BV: If there is one think I totally understand after reading about your story, interviews with you and other sources, it is that you are careful with security and how you communicate with people. And let me also say, on a more personal note, that the personal sacrifice you have made is immense. I did not know this when I started reading about you as a person and what you had been able to convey to world. I just have to say that I admire you for that. I dont think many of us would be able or willing to do what you have done. That must have been really tough.

ES: Thank you. It was a challenge. In my position I felt like I had witnessed something that was tremendously wrong and there were many other people around me who had the same feeling. I discussed this with my colleagues, co-workers and my supervisors, complained about this and said: Is this really right? Is this what we should be doing? Other people also brought the same concerns to me. So it was common knowledge within the NSA that we had crossed the line. We had gone too far. But everybody knew that there was no strong whistle blower protection at the time. There was no way to bring it to the higher levels and get it changed, without ending up in jail. So everybody around me, many were young parents and like everybody else they had things that they cared about, that they could not justify leaving. I had the same struggle. I was with my partner of almost 10 years. I loved her very much. We were really successful. We had our own home in Hawaii. The lifestyle was very fulfilling and I was making a lot of money for someone who did not have very many official qualifications.

But it got to the point where I had to think about the fact that if I didnt do this, who would? And if I dont do this now, what happens next? Because what we have seen the last year/ year and a half is not merely that these systems exist. But they have caused a lot of harm to basically the boundary of our rights, what we consider our national liberties, and the normal relationship we have between our governments and us, the citizens that are being governed. These programs appeared without any public debate. They appeared without vote in the peoples parliaments and congresses around the world. The question to me became, that if I sit on this and do not say anything about it now and just wait for someone else to do it - which is what I was really hoping for, nobody really wants to stand up and put themselves on the spot - what will happen? What if no one does and we wait another 3/ 5/ 10 years and these programs become more solidified? And ultimately it became to me a question, not about surveillance - which was my initial main concern, the abuse that I witnessed - but more importantly it was a change in the relationship between the governing and the governed. It really was about the structure of our society changing, the structure of our freedoms changing. And ultimately, if I did not do that, it would not only alter the world that I would live in, but the world the people I loved lived in, the partner of mine of 10 years and my family. And I do not want them to live in a world where these things take place.

I realized that I could change this. I could say something about it, but I was also thinking that it was going to cost me too much, so this was something that someone else would have to do. Obviously, yes it has had costs, but it has also brought me a deep sense of satisfaction. My family is proud of me. I have been able to keep all of the relationships I had, I do not feel like I have lost any. So it has actually been liberating to put myself out there. To be attacked by my government, but supported by my people. Because when I actually took the step out there I feared that I would be totally vilified, which we saw happen previously, particularly in government circles, even in Europe. The accusations came: I am a traitor. I work for the Chinese. Then I left China and they said: well he works for the Russians, not the Chinese. But it is really incredible to see that people are starting to look a little more critically, a little more deeply, at these issues. Not just about surveillance and how we are being watched, but about how we are being ruled. The question is: do we want leaders who represent us, or do we want rulers, who make decisions for us in our name, but without our participation, our knowledge or consent? I have made my decision about that.

BV: It is almost moving to hear you say that, and it reminds me of the many great human right activists I have met throughout the years. All of them had been in a situation where they knew something was wrong and had a deep sense that they should do something about it. Most times a lot of people shared that sense, but only a few have that extra courage to make the sacrifice themselves. It is impressive and inspiring to hear that you were actually able to take that step. And as you probably already know I, together with a colleague, nominated you to the Nobel Peace Prize.

ES: I never expected anything like that. It came as a tremendous surprise and it is a tremendous honor. I have to say that we both probably recognize that it is somewhat unlikely that the Nobel committee would back something like that but..

BV: You are not the odds favorite I can tell you that.

ES: Right. But I am honored that anybody would consider nominating me, particularly someone like you who represents so many people. Because again, it is not about me, it is about us, and the values that we represent. It is about the principles of how we want to live. So, all I can say is thank you.

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Bård Vegard Solhjells dialogue with Edward Snowden