Multi-Emmy-award-winning filmmaker John Pilger is among the most important political filmmakers and investigative reporters of the 20 and 21st century. From Vietnam to Palestine to atomic war, Pilgers work has been on the cutting edge, and his stinging critique of Western media has always been revelatory and spot on. Indeed, his biting analysis is more relevant and important now than ever. His film, The Coming War on China powerfully sets out the growing potential for war between the U.S. and China. And his film released last year, The Dirty War on the NHS of Great Britain couldnt be more timely, in the age of COVID-19.
I spoke with John Pilger in London on September 12, in response to the case of investigative reporter and Wikileaks publisher Julian Assange, a close friend of Pilgers, who was back in a British court last week. Assange is currently fighting extradition to the US, where he is facing a 175 year jail sentence for alleged espionage.
Dennis J Bernstein:It is good of you to join us John Pilger. American prosecutors have indicted Julian Assange on 18 counts of espionage. They want him to serve 175 years in a US prison. Hes 50 years old, so that means they want him to die in jail. What is so dangerous to the Americans about Julian Assange?
John Pilger:Well, hes very dangerous. He exposes what governments the crimes of governments, the crimes that we the people know very little about. And in this case, he has revealed the unerring, relentless war crimes of the U.S. government, especially in the post-9/11 period. Thats his crime. There are so many ironies to this, Dennis. Assange is more than a whistleblower. Hes a truth teller and as the so-called corporate media is now committed almost entirely to propaganda, the truth that he tells is simply intolerable, unforgivable. He for example, he Wikileaks exposed something those of us who have reported Americas wars already know about, and that is the homicidal nature of these wars, the way the United States has exported the homicide that so consumes much of U.S. society, the way that its exported it to other countries, the relentless killing of civilians.
The video, Collateral Murder, in which an Apache helicopter crew guns down civilians, including journalists, in Baghdad, with the crew laughing and mocking the suffering and death beneath them was not something that will be unique. All of us who have reported lets say Americas colonial wars had stories of that kind of thing happening. But Assange had evidence, and thats and that was his other crime. His evidence is authentic. All the disclosures of Wikileaks are authentic. That makes it very different from other kinds of journalism, which some are authentic, but some are not. Thats just the way it goes. But all of Wikileaks disclosures are authentic. They are coming from within a system and all of that has really shaken, I think, the inner core of the national security establishment in the United States. And nothing is being spared, to get hold of Assange and put him away.
Bernstein:And that is very troubling to those of us who really consider ourselves journalists. We know thatU.S.authorities allege that Assange conspired with U.S. Army Intelligence Analyst Chelsea Manning.Manning spent a lot of time in jail, in solitary and she is back in jail again. Theyre going after her and him.Really, the point that you make about collateral murder, some would say he released important secrets ofthe United States. Others would say he told the truth about a country called the United States, engaged inmass murder.
Pilger:Well, these revelations give us more than a glimpse of the sociopathic nature of the way the United Statesconducts itself around the world. You know, many people are shocked by the behavior of Donald Trump,but they really wouldnt shouldnt be shocked. Well, yes, they should be shocked. They but theyshouldnt be surprised, because Trumps behavior has been the behavior of his predecessors overmany years. The difference is that Trump is a caricature of the system. And so, hes much easier toidentify, much easier to loathe, I suppose [laughs], certainly much easier to understand. It makes it all verysimple and simplistic, but its rather more complicated than that.
The evidence that Wikileaks produced was long before Trump, and its we now know, of course, thatAfghanistan has been a killing field for the United States and its so-called allies since 2001. I mean, therewas a report you may have seen, just recently, by Brown University, Professor David Vine, at theWatson Institute at Brown, I know David, where this study estimates that some 37 million people thatsequivalent to the entire population of Canada have been forced to flee their home country by the actionsof the United States. He says this is a very conservative figure, that the numbers of these displacedpeopleis probably in the region of between 48 and 59 people [sic]. They estimate that 9.2 million peopleand 7.1 million people in Syria have been displaced.
Now, the numbers of deaths and again, they emphasize how conservative this finding is, is something like12 million. This carnage has been going on for a very long time, but Professor Vine and his researchersare only referring to the period since 9/11, the so-called war on terror, which, of course, has been a war ofterror all that time, as his findings demonstrate. And Wikileaks findings really complement these facts, andwere talking of facts here. This isnt an opinion. These things have happened. These people have beenforced out of their homes. Their societies have been destroyed. Untold numbers have been probably sentout of their mind, and many, many people are grieving the loss of loved ones because of these actions.
So, Wikileaks has given us that truth, and really, Julian Assange has performed a quite remarkable publicservice in letting us know hes let hes letting us know how governments lie to us, how our governmentslie to us, not the official enemies, although Wikileaks, of course, has released hundreds of thousands ofdocuments, secret documents from Russia and China and other countries. But its really those countries inthe West that we regard as our countries that matter most. Hes forced us what he hes forced us tolook in the mirror. That has been his extraordinary contribution and to true enlightenment of Westernsocieties. And for that, hes paying a very high price
Hes told us the truth, in other words. He is shining the light on all corruption in the worldWikileaks has given us insights. Wikileaks has allowed us to see how governments operate in secret,behind their backs. I mean, that is such an essential part of any true democracy that really theres nodiscussion about. It should be just part of it. But weve reached a stage in the 21st century where theformal democracies have changed character to such a degree.
I dont know, really, what theyve become, but theyre certainly not democracies, where almost every daythey invent a new law that is designed to suppress truth or make what they do even more secretive. Andthats thats earned him the curiously, but I suppose understandably, if youre a psychiatrist, thatsearned him the animosity of many journalists, because he shamed journalism for not doing the job, for nottelling us.
Bernstein:Whats your best understanding of how Julian is doing, and please talk a little bit about why he is in courtnow, and about the process?
Pilger:Well, this is the continuation of the extradition hearing, which is going at an agonizingly slow pace. And itbegan in February, and it picked up again on MondaySeveral of the defense witnesses have been have been very impressive. Clive StaffordSmith, the who has is an American lawyer but also a British lawyer. He practice can practice in bothcountries. And he founded the organization, Reprieve, and he has had a lot to do with helping people inGuantanamo.
And he was describing to the court the importance of Wikileaks revelations about Guantanamo, howWikileaks had shone a light on the whole dark corner that was Guantanamo. And he was describing thepositive impact of that. Theres been argument about what has come through, what is clear, is that manysenior Department of Justice officials did not want to carry through this prosecution. Assange was neverprosecuted during Obamas time, because Obama understood very clearly that if Assange was prosecuted,then the knock-on effect would be that those media institutions, such as the New York Times, which hadcarried Wikileaks revelations, would have to be prosecuted as well. And Im sure not for any principalreason, but for his own political reasons, he decided the administration decided not to go that far.
It is the Trump administration that has decided to go that far, because Trump is clearly well, hes declaredthat hes at war with the American media. He called them enemies of the people, and for his ownreasons. I mean, there are no argued principal reasons. There are plenty [laughs] plenty of reasons tobe critical of the media. But Trumps quite different from that. And undoubtedly Wikileaks has been sweptup in this personal war that Trump is conducting Trump and his cronies are conducting against the media.People like Pompeo, I mean, Pompeo has really swore publicly that he would be going after JulianAssange, in so many words.He was rather angry when he was Director of the CIA that Wikileaks leaked files known as Vault 7, andVault 7 was the CIA files that really told us how the CIA spy on us and can spy on us through our televisionsets. And so, theres no question Julian Assange has made real enemies among these people, and theyrevery extreme people. And their though their indictment reflects their almost their desperation, becausemost of the so-called charges are to do with espionage. So, journalism is reclassified by the Trumpadministration as espionage, and theyre using a 1917 Espionage Act that was brought in during the FirstWorld War to silence peace activists, who didnt want the United States to join Europe in the First WorldWar.
Thats how desperate they are. Theyve had to reach back more than a century and defy the Constitution,which, of course, allows the publication the free publication of leaks and documents. But they are defyingthat and ignoring it. And so far, theyre getting away with it. The truth is, Dennis, that this ordeal that JulianAssange is going through day after day in a court where the whole atmosphere is not of due process butof due revenge and bias, hes hes going through this because those who have political power regarda political enemy. Its a completely lawless approach. It has nothing to do with the law.
And the truth is that these so-called these espionage charges and all the rest of these frankly ridiculousindictments wouldve been thrown out on the first day of any legitimate court hearing or would never havegot to court, in the first place. Ive sat in a number of courts over the years. Ive never heard anything likethese. Theres a kind of its like Alices tea party, you know, theyre mad. But theyre very serious.
Bernstein:I think where US journalists fail most is their ignorance around foreign policy, context, and history. Youknow, the genius in American foreign policy is Thomas Friedman of the New York Times, who knows verylittle about a lot. But I want to I mean, for instance, this fantasy story that came up about the Russianspaying the Taliban to kill Americans.
Pilger:Yeah, Dennis, and the the Russians stole the election from Hilary Clinton and Saddam Hussein reallydid have weapons of mass destruction, and so on and so on.Its just fantasy. Theres nothing I find thereis absolutely nothing to be believed now. Fantasy: A Russian politician, a very unsavory character he is,too; hes not an opposition leader, is miraculously poisoned with Novichok, made in the former Soviet Unionand miraculously spirited into Berlin, where the German doctors contradict the Russian doctors and saythat he was poisoned. I mean, [laughs] you know, anything can be made up now. I mean, it always madeup, in one sense. You know, I I think I was self-taught that you never believed anything that well, younever believe anything, until it was officially denied. That was the famous maxim of great Irish muckrakerClaude Cockburn. But you never believed anything that had intelligent sources as its legitimacy. Youdismissed it. A real journalist dismissed it.
Now, all this nonsense is is all over front pages and spoken with such hysterical certainty on the TV news.
This is government propaganda on steroids, at the moment. I mean, they laugh at Trump, but I mean, in away, quite separately, the media is a propaganda vehicle is well and truly past Trump, in its in the power ofits fantasies.
Bernstein:Finally, John, you know, in the current context of politics and the presidential election, youve got both sidessmashing China, blaming China, sort of setting us up for that 21st-century war that you warned us about inThe Coming War on China. Your thoughts on whats coming up here.
Pilger:Well, Im sorry that film of four years ago seems to have been prescient. The Trump administration is soobsessed with China. And so, when I spoke of fantasies before, we now have China fantasies, day afterday. Now, but what this is doing is creating a state of almost not quite yet, but its getting there, a state ofsiege in China. And they are very hurriedly putting up the ramparts, their defenses. Theyre developingsome extremely effective maritime missiles, and theyre changed their as I understand it, theyvechanged their nuclear posture from low alert to high alert. Theyre doing all sorts of things they hadno intention of doing, when I was there four years ago. Then, they were bemused [laughs].
Now, I think theyre genuinely worried, and theyre moving quickly to prepare to in preparing to defendthemselves. Thats a situation when mistakes and accidents can happen, and these are nuclear powers.
People have to understand that propaganda has is lethal. Its lethal in many ways, but it can be literallylethal. It can create the conditions that lead to war. And I think thats a possibility, at the moment. It hasnt it hasnt happened yet, but the risks are now far more numerous, and they come day after day.
Bernstein:Finally, do whats your sense of how Julian is doing, personally? Is he hanging on? Whats the situation? What do we know about the physical stuff?
Pilger:Well, hes certainly hanging on. He looks like hes put on a little more weight, which is good news. But hehas still has an untreated lung condition. Hes managing to survive in a prison where there have beenCOVID cases and at least one COVID death. But the thing about Julian is his resilience, for me. I mean,there are lots of interesting sides to the man, but his resilience is probably [laughs] the most extraordinary,how he keeps going. But he is. And but he is still only one human being, and the pressures of this showtrial, this squalid show trial and all the sordid events that led up to it, he is an innocent man. His only crimeis journalism.
Bernstein:His only crime is journalism. And whats at stake, if he loses? If Julia Assange is sent to jail for the rest ofhis life for committing the act of journalism. Do we lose, here in the United States, the First Amendment?Whats at stake?
Pilger:Whats at stake? Well, whats at stake, first of all, is justice for this for this person, this one heroicindividual. But on a wider sense, what is at stake is is freedom. And I dont really say immediately. Itsquite even among those who support Julian and campaign for him, but freedom of the press is at stake.
Well, I dont think there is any free press. So, Im not sure that thats at stake, because it doesnt exist,certainly not in the mainstream. But I think the freedom of those exceptional journalists, and thats theyrepresent the free press, those principled mavericks who have nothing to do with the Guardian or the NewYork Times or any of these institutions.
I think theyre the whole principle of their right to be free journalists is at stake. Certainly, above all that, isthe right of all of us to live in free societies and to know to call to account great power, to know what itdoes. Theyre very basic freedoms at stake, here.
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