Historically, the lore of romantic relationships between famous artists has long been marked by infamy, jealousy and, more often than not, the interference of a third person. Theres Cristina Kahlo, who briefly romanced Diego Rivera and drove her sister, Frida, a little mad in so doing; Dorothea Tanning, who lured Max Ernst away from Peggy Guggenheim after a single game of chess; and Franoise Gilot, Pablo Picassos ultimate obsession and muse, who brought an end to his habit of trading one lover for another by eventually walking out on him.And should we be surprised? Governed by passion in their profession, its no wonder that artists, encouraged to explore human desire in their work, allow that fiery energy to spill over into their personal lives.

For a new series, Portraits of Love,Artnet News decided to learn about how present day, very-much-in-love art world couples navigate their relationships in a healthy way. Last week, we sat down with artist Tschabalala Selfa young art star whose market has exploded since she graduated from Yale in 2015and her boyfriend, Mike Mosby (an art therapist, independent curator, and DJ) to learn about how they navigate their partnership as two creative souls in love.

Below, in their first joint interview to date, Self and Mosby share what its like to date your best friend, how they cultivate balance in their relationship, and how they support each other through it all.

Tell me a little about your backgrounds and how you decided to pursue your interest in the arts.

Tschabalala: I grew up in Harlem, New York. I always had an interest in art, and then I studied studio art in college and painting in grad school [at Yale]. After leaving grad school, I started pursuing it more professionally. Its something that Ive always had an interest in and, through school and work, Ive been able to turn that interest into something greater.

Mike: I became interested in creative fields through my familyI grew up in a very fashionable and creative household, between my grandmother and my mother. My mother was a model when she was a teenager in Manhattan. I loved freehand-drawing on cereal boxes as a child, and I got into art films as a teen. My family moved to upstate New York from the city. Up there, I was pretty much surrounded by artists, which was pretty powerful.

So youre both New Yorkers.

Tschabalala: Yeah. We both have family in Harlem. I went to Bard for college, and I hadnt really gone back up there until we started dating, maybe 10 yearsactually, no, not 10 years, Im not that old [laughs]I guess six years after I graduated.

And did you like Bard?

Tschabalala: I did. I didnt really like the area at the time, though. I didnt really appreciate it until I got older.

Did you both know that you wanted to pursue art professionally from a young age?

Mike: Actually, I was a pretty serious athlete growing up. I played football for 12 years of my life. I got badly injured in high school, though, and tore two ligaments in my ankle, so that sort of stopped my football career. But I still had art at the back of my mindit was always with me. It was my Plan B in that sense, and I started to get into it more seriously. I got a job doing art therapy, working with autistic kids and adults, teaching them to express themselves and communicate through art, particularly when theres a lack of language skills. The arts are very calming, centering, and therapeutic for the individuals I work with.

Tschabalala: I guess when I was younger I considered doing other things, but I never really applied myself that seriously to anything other than the arts. Ive always focused on it. I dont really know what else I could have done. I think if I wasnt an artist, I would definitely be doing something else thats trade-orientedsomething maybe in design, or even

Mike: Medicine?

Tschabalala: I mean, I did say that I would love to be a plastic surgeon. Also, because Im a hypochondriac, I sometimes wish I had gone to medical school. But yeah, maybe something trade-oriented where I could work with my hands and interact with a lot of people. I do enjoy that a lot about artthat its public-facing.

Self and Mosby. Photo courtesy Araba Ankuma.

Were there any artistsfine artists, actors, musicians or anyone in a creative industry, reallywho influenced you significantly growing up?

Mike:I would have to say Denzel Washington, first and foremost. He can play any role, hes a very versatile actor. He can play a doctor or gangster cop or a radical activist. And hes a New Yorker, which is the icing on the cake.

Tschabalala: Oh, he is? I didnt know that.

Mike: Yeah, hes from Mount Vernon. And he was very involved in the Boys & Girls Clubs programs.

Also a guy named Reggie Madison. Hes an older gentleman that I grew up knowing while living upstate in Hudson. Hes a sculptor and he paints. He also incorporates a lot of jazz in his artworkhe can hear a Miles Davis or Sun Ra track, and hell paint or sculpt something around it. He blends music and art together.

Tschabalala: I would say a significant influence for me growing up was a woman I used to work for named Montgomery Harris. She had a boutique in Harlem called Montgomery that housed all her own bespoke designs. I worked for her pretty much every summer in high school. I really admired her because she had opened her business on her own, as a black woman creative, and shed brought something so interesting and unique to the neighborhood. It was amazing to see what she was doing on an entrepreneurial and artistic level; it was just such a brave thing to do. So for me to see that model at that time, and to work for her, was really motivating. I got to see what it was like to live the life of a creativeall the glory of it and all the hard parts, too. She was a huge influence, and she taught me so much about fashion, art, and design. Shes still a very close friend of mine.

Is there a piece of advice that she gave you that youve held onto over the years?

Tschabalala: I cant say that it was just one piece of advice, but just how she moved in the world and how she carried herself through the trials and tribulations. I took a lot from that.

And Mike, was there anything that your mentors imparted to you thats stayed with you?

Mike: Definitely. Back to Reggie, he sort of always told me, Be free with your mind. And to do what makes you happy as far as art goes. He collects all these found objectsold books, old pieces of furnitureand builds these beautiful art objects and pieces. And hed just tell me to keep pursuing what I wanted to pursue, and to be inspired by my surroundings. Hes like over 70 years oldits not about the money for him, its about having a say in the art world and the world in general. About having a voice.

Tschabalala Self, Bodega Run installation view at the Hammer Museum (2019). Photo courtesy Joshua White.

How did you two meet?

Tschabalala: Through mutual friends.

Mike: At an art show! Again, in part because of my mentor and my good friend, Reggie Madison. It was the last day of Kerry James Marshalls Mastery show at the Met. So on that day, I was on social media, butto backtrack, Id been following Tschabas work for a few years from her show at the Studio Museum in Harlem. She was in a group show there with some people that I knew. So, fast forward to the day. I DMd her. I sent her a message and I was like, Oh hey, theres a guy having a show in Harlem named Derek Fordjour.

Tschabalala:It was a group show, but I cant remember who else was in the show.

Mike: But it was definitely Derek, and I was like, Im coming up. That was overwhelming, the Mastry show, by the way. After seeing that, you cant see anymore art, you sort of need time to really digest what youve seen. But I said, You know what, Im intrigued. So I went up there [to the group show in Harlem], and I saw her outside and I was like, Wow, who is this beautiful lady? This is her?! And Reggies like, Oh man, shes beautiful. And then we had a conversation for the whole time at the show, while we were looking at the art. We just connected. And we had mutual friends, too, and a lot of things in common, so it sort of felt like dotting the is, in that sense.

Tschabalala: It was sort of the perfect place to have a first date, because all my friends were there for the show.

Mike: It was a very comfortable setting in that way.

Tschabalala: And I think we all went out afterwards to Corner Social. And then I left for four weeks after that for a residency.

Mike: In Detroit!

Tschabalala: So we didnt see each other for another month, but we talked every day.

Mike: We did the phone thing.

Phone calls or FaceTime?

Tschabalala: We did calls.

Mike: I had a flip phone, remember? iPhones are very distracting and, yeah, it would have been nice to see each other, but that would have changed the whole energy. Youre not really here you know?

Self and Mosby. Photo courtesy Araba Ankuma.

Totally. Did you go out to visit her at all when she was over there?

Mike: No, because she was working pretty much all the time.

Tschabalala: Yeah, and my familys out there. My aunts and my cousins live thereso I was catching up with them.

Mike: But then when she came back to New York, we just connected.

How long have you been together now?

Tschabalala: I know we first spoke on the day of the [Trump] inaugurationso as long as that.

Oh, god. No way.

Mike: I had to support her that day. So were going on three years!

A historic day for many reasons, in that case. How would you describe the nature of your relationship in a couple of words?

Mike: Very vibrant. Fun. A lot of teachable moments. Very spontaneous at times, but in a good way. You know every couple says, Were friends. But I could really say this is my friend. We do all the things that friends do together. We go on a lot of journeys together, we have a lot of good times. Theres no pressure, no ones really getting dragged into things they dont want to do. Everything is mutual, so we do a lot together.

Tschabalala: I feel like I cant beat that [description]. I would say that Mike feels very familiar and he reminds me of all the best parts of my life before I met him. I can carry all the best things with me moving forward because of him.

Sort of like your anchor, in a way.

Tschabalala: Yeah, but he encompasses all the best qualities of all my loved ones. He has all their best traits.

Mike: And she also has all the best qualities of the women in my life, my grandmother and my mother. Shes very drivenI tell her that shes the hardest working woman I know, alongside my grandmother and my mother. This woman right here, shes literally a workaholic, but she makes it look fun. And once you get into that world, you understand how hard it is. People have no idea. Its seriously a ton of work. And outside of the art world, your personal life is your own life. It can be very complicated.

How have you managed to support one another through such a momentous time in both of your lives?

Mike: Communication. Just listening and trying to understand. And patienceyouve got to have patience, too, especially for a relationship like this. Youve got to understand the person and who youre with. You have to give them space and time, you cant be too clingy. Youve got to let that person be who theyve got to be.

Tschabalala: I would agree, its a balance between working on building a life together, but also making sure youre working on your individual identity at the same so that you can be fully present in your relationship.

Is it ever hard to navigate the slipping on and off of those identities, those hats, as a creative and as a significant other?

Mike: I think its very easy for me. I dont think Ive ever really struggled with that. And weve also collaborated on a few things together.

Tschabalala: Yeah, I feel like you dont have to take that hat off. We like to keep it on. But also relationships get really complicated, so you have to figure out ways to problem-solve creatively. But yeah, I dont think you ever really have to take that creative hat off. I guess its good to always be open-minded about whats possible.

Mike: I guess some people are afraid of compromise, but its really just about being understanding. You can keep your creative hat on at the same time and navigate life together. Of course you want to have your own identity and your own thoughts; you dont want to blur everything together. But if you have an idea, you can share those ideas together.

Tschabalala: And I think that creatives understand thateven within their relationships to their work, theres sacrifice and compromise, theres some push and pull. If you apply that same logic to your relationshipand allow there to be some imperfectionI think that makes things simpler. I think thats how I relate to my practice, and my relationships to my other loved ones as well. I think you have to allow for things to sometimes be nonsensical.

Mike: PerfectionI mean, come on, theres gotta be flaws there. Whats the fun in perfection?

Self and Mosby. Photo courtesy Araba Ankuma.

Walk me through what its like for you to collaborate on a project. How do you come up with an idea and then how do you see it through?

Tschabalala:A lot of times when were working on something together, Mike comes up with the idea and I figure out how to actualize it.

Mike: Yeah, Tschabas definitelyshes the one to sort of bring it to life. Whats an idea without any real substance? You need the action behind it, to make it something you can see.

Tschabalala: And the only thing weve actualized so far, really, has been our party series, Free Range. And it was really Mikes idea to do something like that in Hudson, and then I worked to build up the infrastructure for it, and we also had one other collaborator, our friend Shaneika, who helped to form the concept. Shes a writer and a curator, so she helped to establish the vibe and mood. It was cool.

Mike: Yeah, I mean we all have our own ideas, so of course sometimes theres friction. It happens, but we support one another. Tschabas been very supportive in my new venture. Im embarking on a curatorial project, a four-person show in Hudson opening in October this year. It will be at a beautiful spacea great place to explore yourself and art. So thats very exciting.

Thats great. Could you guys ever see yourselves living up there in Hudson together?

Tschabalala: Mike lives there, and I want to eventually transition up there from Connecticut. Because I dont imagine myself moving back to New York City. I need so much space, and because its so expensive here, New York isnt so conducive to having a studio in addition to an apartment. So for me, I need a place thats cheaper, where I can get more space for less money. Ive been living in Connecticut for seven years now, so Im going to maybe move back to New York state soon, maybe somewhere in the Hudson Valley or in Columbia County.

How often do you see each other?

Tschabalala: We see each other a lot, when Im here. When we dont see each other is when Im traveling for work.

Mike: And thats where the relationship has to come with understanding. We both like our space. So we know how to separate and come back together.

So you both really value your freedom and ability to live separately, sometimes, when youre pursuing your work?

Mike: Oh, definitely. And then when were back together, it makes us much more appreciative. Its fun and we have fun together, like 8 out of 10 times. [laughs]

Tschabalala: [laughs] 8 out of 10 times, like a B+.

Mike: No, but Im being real! Its great most of the time, but occasionally youre going to have debates, youre going to have stuff to work on.

Tschabalala: Right, some of the time its about relationship-building.

Tschabalala Self, Black Joy 8Chocolate Lady with Pretty Teeth, Black Joy 9Long Neck, Black Joy 10Good Man (2019). Courtesy Pilar Corrias Gallery.

How do you guys weigh in on each others work? What have you learned about how you each like to receive feedback?

Mike: Tschabalalas still learning aboutmy work within the field of autism-spectrum disorders, because its a very complex thing. But because she has a very high understanding of art, she definitely understands how much I care about using art as a form of therapy. Both of our jobs are very demanding and require a a lot of sensitivity. In the arts, people seem less friendly, and its this idea of fake it till you make it. And thats fine, whatever, so Im learning about all of that, and the intensity of all that.

Which must be so cutthroat, Im sure.

Mike: Yeah, its really about having a wolf mentality sometimes. A survival mentality. You have to be like a shark in that sense, to have longevity.

Tschabalala:In terms of Mike, Ill give him opinions about things and Ill say, This is a good idea, or Maybe it would be better if it was executed this way. I think Mike is pretty receptive to my ideas, but hes very much an independent thinker, too. He goes about things his own way, which I actually admire. I think Im similar.

Mike: Oh, yeah. And Im a social person, and shes not really. Ill say, Tschaba, go say hi to that collector, or that curator! And shes like, Hmmm

Tschabalala: We saw John Waters at the New Museum opening for Jordan Casteel and Peter SaulIm a huge fan of his, but I couldnt manage to walk over to say hi.

Mike: Not a peep.

Tschabalala: Yeah. But Mike is great at parties, hell talk to everyone. Hell do all the introductions and then I dont really have to break the ice.

Mike: I think when youre working with kids and adults who have unique needs you have to develop really strong communication skills. So I can go up to anyone, if Im interested in that person, and have a conversation with them. And they can turn out to be cool peopleyoud never know if you didnt talk to them! Tschaba, you should try it, but then again youve made it this far without it.

What are you focusing on in 2020?

Tschabalala: Im focusing mostly on my solo shows. I just opened up a show at the ICA Boston, which Im very proud of. Its a very mature overview of my practice thus far, and points to where my work is going. I am also currently working on my show opening at Eva Presenhuber Gallery in New York this May and preparing for my next institutional show at the Baltimore Museum of Art opening in the summer. So Im focusing mainly on those projects, experimenting in my studio, and further developing my sculptural works. Those are my main objectives for 2020. I feel like its already zipping by.

Mike: Im going to focus on curating the show in Hudson this fall and making sure its a success for all the artists involved. So yeah, just more exposure to art and learning about art as I pursue this next step. I want to keep learning about artiststheir personalities and people in that world. Thank god I have the patience for that.

Tschabalala: Yeah, cause of me.

Mike: Yeah! And artists are like the customerstheyre always right, you know? You have to be like, Im not about to have a power struggle. Im the curator, for me its about working together and making their vision come to life. So thats definitely my biggest goal for 2020.

What art-related activities do you guys like doing together?

Tschabalala: We like to see shows. We go to MASS MoCA a lot, because its close to HudsonArt Omi. Were going to go to Dia:Beacon and Storm King this spring. We havent gone together; weve actually never been to Dia:Beacon at all. And then friends openings.

Mike: And we watch a lot of films together, too.

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Were Partners, But Were Also Best Friends: Tschabalala Self and Mike Mosby on the Rewards of Artistic Love - artnet News