Well, you cant argue with that, O.K.? Whether or not Romney could have taken the Party in a more productive, rational fiscal policy, well never know. I say this in the book, and I think its pretty much inarguable, the idea of so-called trickle-down economics has proved to be nonsense.

Do you think Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney and George W. Bush think its nonsense?

I cant speak for them.

How do you understand his 2012 campaignthat Romney met with Trumpand things like this?

Listen, both those candidates had fifty per cent favorables. Romney got a lot of criticism for not going far enough on stuff. If you go back to the foreign-policy debate, he was criticized for not trying to make Benghazi the center of all evil. In the Republican primary, I remember this well, there was one of those awful raise-your-hand questions: Who believes Barack Obama is a socialist? Mitt Romney was the only person who didnt raise his hand.

He did write a book called No Apology, presenting Obama as some sort of foreign-policy radical.

I think there were huge failures with Barack Obamas foreign policy. I really dont know how anybody would argue with that. You could argue that those failures were inevitable, but you cant look at Syria, the greatest human-rights tragedy in the post-World War Two world, and not think that it was a tremendous, horrible failure. You can sustain two beliefs. I can. One, that Barack Obama is a decent human being, and if Barack Obama were President today the country would be better off. I say that without hesitation, while admitting that there were failures. I think that there was a failure on Obamacare not to be able to come to some greater ability to have both parties support part of it. And probably what we should have done on Obamacare is divide it into pieces. I think its governmentally problematic when you have one party pass it.

He did pass a version of Mitt Romneys health-care plan, but let me ask you, Are you in touch with Romney?

I talk to Senator Romney some. Mainly about books were reading and just stuff going on in mutual friends lives. You know, the impeachment, for example, I had no idea how he would vote. The stuff that I talk to him about is more like personal stuff.

Do you think that Romney or Bush will endorse Joe Biden? Do you think that they should?

I would be very surprised if they do. I think, particularly, for an ex-President the roles that they playI mean, theres a lot of talk about why didnt President Obama weigh in more in the primary. I think it is a unique role that has serious gravity.

I would be very surprised if Senator Romney endorsed him. My experience with Romney is pretty much that on the record and off the record is the same these days. What he said is that he intends to do what he did last time. I think thats what hell do.

Does that disappoint you in any way?

No. I think Mitt Romney has been heroic. I think the eternal shame of most of these Republicans is going to be, why didnt we follow Mitt Romney? I mean, Mitt Romney went out [against Trump] in March of 2016, and, had the Republican Party rallied around him, we could have saved ourselves from this incredible debacle and disgrace and humiliation.

Did you ever figure out what his whole Secretary of State flirtation thing was? Do you think that was just trying to be an adult in the room?

I pretty much know what it was about, because I talked to him then. I think its pretty much what you would thinkthat theres a greater duty to the country, and I think he thought that, out of respect for the office and the process, he should talk to Donald Trump. I think hes very glad that he was never asked to be Secretary of State, because I think it would have been the shortest Secretary of State tenure in history. I dont think he would have lasted two months.

Why are Southerners attracted to Donald Trump?

Its a question Ive asked myself a lot, because in many ways Donald Trump is the caricature of the rich Yankee that were always warned about, who has no manners, no respect for anyone, including women, who is crass, and values money over everything. Thats Donald Trump, and hes pretty much wildly popular with a lot of polite Southerners. I think that there is a perception of Donald Trump as a fighter that appeals to a Southern Scotch-Irish tradition that loves to fight. I think there was a sense that he was politically incorrect and would tell the establishment, Screw you. At the same time, in a lot of these states he did worse than Mitt Romney did. In many ways, Mitt Romney was an unusual fit being a Mormon and also being from Massachusetts. I think that theres a lot of reluctance.

Ive found the Roy Moore thing both the most inspiring and depressing event, because you say, What would it take to get white Republicans to vote for a Democratic moderate? You say, O.K., what if the Republican was a child molester? [In 2018, the Democrat Doug Jones defeated Moore in the race for a U.S. Senate seat, after Moore denied reports that he had made sexual advances toward underage girls in the seventies.] The positive isand not for the first timethat Alabama was saved by African-Americans and saved by, particularly, African-American women. And saved by evangelicals. You know, one of the things that drives me absolutely crazy is we talk about evangelicals and say Trump is popular with evangelicals, and thats not true. Trump is popular with white evangelicals.

Same with the way we talk about the working class.

Exactly.

The Lincoln Project ads have obviously been very effective in getting a lot of press. Do you think that theyre aimed more at lites to signal the Republican opposition to Trump, or are you really trying to get voters to switch? Im not saying the first is necessarily unimportant, but whats the goal?

I think there are multiple purposes here, and I think the purposes are shifting as the Lincoln Project starts spending more money on television. I think, in part, theyve existed to give permission to others to say what needs to be said that isnt being said. Look, Im just kind of a backup singer in the Lincoln Project. It wasnt my creation. Im playing rhythm guitar on this thing. But not having a client is very liberating. You dont have to worry that if you go too far, its going to blow back on your client, because you dont have a client. I think that part of the role that the project has been able to play is to say what people are thinking, but you really cant say that out loud. You say it out loud, and I think thats positive, and I think it moves the needle of discussion. I think that it helps the Biden campaign.

I know that Trumpworld gives every indication of being obsessed with the Lincoln Project, and then its a joke when they attack us. Are you crazy? I mean, were not running for President. Thats a day that theyre not focussed on the Biden campaign.

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Why Stuart Stevens Wants to Defeat Donald Trump - The New Yorker