In this episode of Giving With Impact, an original podcast series fromStanford Social Innovation Reviewdeveloped with the support of Schwab Charitable, host andSSIRpublisher Michael Gordon Voss speaks about the philanthropic implications of the distinct characteristics of giving by women withAndrea Pactor, author and interim director of the Womens Philanthropy Institute at the Lilly Family School of Philanthropy at Indiana University, and Carrie Schwab-Pomerantz, author, board chair and president of the Charles Schwab Foundation, and board chair of Schwab Charitable. The full transcript of the episode can be read below.

[MICHAEL VOSS] Welcome to Giving With Impact, an original podcast series from Stanford Social Innovation Review, developed with the support of Schwab Charitable. Im your host, Michael Gordon Voss, publisher of SSIR. In this series, we hope to create a collaborative space for leading voices from across the philanthropic ecosystem, to engage in both aspirational and practical conversations around relevant topics at the heart of achieving more effective philanthropy.

Traditional beliefs about philanthropy, including who gives, how, and with what effect, can lead to misunderstandings, and actually stand in the way of achieving social impact.

One area in which misperceptions persist is the subject of womens charitable giving. While a superficial glance at the data would make it appear that women give less in total dollars, and give to fewer organizations than men, the reality is very different, and far more nuanced. Are there differences in womens and mens approaches to philanthropy? Do women apply a different set of criteria than men when making philanthropic decisions, and if so, what does this mean for philanthropy writ large?

To begin to unpack these questions, were very fortunate today to be joined by two prolific authors, both of whom have unique perspective on the subject of philanthropy and gender. In addition to being a co-author of several works on philanthropy, and a contributor to the seminal From Donor to Philanthropist: The Value of Donor Education in Creating Confident, Joyful Donors, Andrea Pactor is the interim director of the Womens Philanthropy Institute at the Lilly Family School of Philanthropy at Indiana University.

Known for several books, including the recent The Charles Schwab Guide to Finances After Fifty, and her popular syndicated weekly personal finance column, Ask Carrie, Carrie Schwab-Pomerantz is board chair and president of the Charles Schwab Foundation, as well as board chair of Schwab Charitable.

Andrea, Carrie, thank you, both, for joining me today as we explore the relationship between giving and gender, and whether and how this relates to impact.

[CARRIE SCHWAB-POMERANTZ] Thanks for having us, Michael.

[ANDREA PACTOR] Yes, thank you.

[MV] Well, lets get started. The cover article from the fall 2019 issue of Stanford Social Innovation Review, co-authored by a team of researchers from the Lilly School, of which you are a part, Andrea, exploded eight of the common myths of US philanthropy, including the idea that women are less philanthropic than men. Andrea, can you share with us some of the data that shows the actual picture of women and philanthropy, and the predictors of philanthropy that youve identified?

[AP] Sure, Michael. Thats a great place to start. And the first thing that people should understand is that women have always been philanthropic, but their stories have been mentioned less often than the stories of men, particularly in this country. In some ways, were living in a golden age of womens philanthropy, and part of that is because the two key predictors of giving are education and income. And as most people know, today, women have more of both. The other piece of this is that women are more predisposed to use the wealth that they accumulate to improve the communities around them.

[MV] Research also identified any notable differences in approaches to philanthropy between women and men, with regards to their strategies? How do those differ, if at all?

[AP] Absolutely. The bottom line is that gender matters in philanthropy, that men and women have different motivations for giving, and different patterns of giving. One trend that were seeing now is that more women are leveraging all of their resourcesincome, assets, their familiesto make the change that they want to see. And my partner in this program, Carrie, is a really good example of this trend.

[MV] Well, I couldnt ask for a better segue. So, with that, Carrie, people are probably familiar with your writing and your leadership roles with both Schwab Charitable and the Schwab Foundation, but would you mind sharing with us a little bit about your personal philanthropic journey, as well as some insights into the causes that you care about most?

[CSP] I admit I fell into philanthropy. I was in my early 30s. I was living in Atlanta, and I was working for Schwab. You know, I had little children, and that was my focus. And a friend of mine who was in banking invited eight women, all of us in finance, to come meet the executive director of the Atlanta Womens Foundation. And at this dinner the executive director talked about their work, all about womens issues. And the ask of all of us was would we come together as women in finance and raise money for womens economic parity.

And I still remember that night so vividly, because I went home that night, went to bed, and I tossed and I turned, because what what they were asking for was to raise $50,000 a year for three years, that was the commitment. And I had never asked anybody for money, so I was terrified at the thought. But at the same time, what I discovered, it was like I had this little light in my belly that just needed a little match. And thats exactly what happened. I was so excited that there was philanthropy, that I could actually do something to help women. And so I did sign up for the commitment of three years, and not everybody did. I think some were probably a little bit intimidated. But I did it, and I ended up being the number one fundraiser all three years, and then I became the chair of the group, you know, and then that really launched my philanthropy.

And so what I found in that experience is that when you have passion ... its really passion about anything, but in particular around philanthropy, that nothing can get in the way. And any time I was asking for money from different organizations or individuals, and I was scared, I would remind myself, Why am I doing this? And thats what gave me the courage to go forward.

[MV] Its funny, because in another conversation I recently had with Trisha Raikes, she also talked about the importance of that passion, too.

And what about some of the causes? So, obviously womens issues are important to you, Carrie. What are some of the other causes?

[CSP] Throughout most of my career has been a big focus on women, and getting them more engaged and educated around finances. But then, you know, later, I was asked to run the Charles Schwab Foundation, and I restructured it so that it focused also on our collective passion among the employees, our heritage around financial literacy. And could I have maybe made it around women economic parity, or, you know, financial literacy? I think I was going to get more out of it, more out of the company, more social impact, by bringing the whole company behind this.

So I would say that my personal philanthropy has continued to evolve. Its really, financial literacy, financial empowerment for all populations, from women, to underserved teens, to low income 50-year-olds, to everyday Americans, because lack of financial literacy in this country cuts across Americans from all walks of life.

[MV] Andrea, let me switch back to you for a second. Among other things, Carrie spoke about her experience with the Atlanta Womens Foundation, and it reminded me of something from your research about the ways women make decisions about charitable giving. Can you share some of those ideas?

[AP] Yes, thank you. First of all, Carrie, thank you so much for your support of the Atlanta Womens Foundation. Its really important. We have lots of conversation these days about economic independence and opportunities for women. And so its been talked about a lot, but we released this study not too long ago the Women and Girls Index, which find that womens and girls causes, like what you supported, received 1.6 percent of total charitable contributions.

Theres a gap between what the conversation is in culture and across society and the actual giving. The work that you are doing is really important. And your personal experience, I just love it because it dovetails with what we find in the research, and its always nice when we can find that.

In terms of decision-making, this is a significant trend of research in gender and philanthropy, and we have found in a number of studies that at least 50 percent of households make their charitable decisions jointly. But theres a different pattern in high-net-worth households where more women are making their decisions independently. So this is perhaps a result of the financial independence that more women are achieving in todays society.

And then the other part is that passion that you talked about. When women make decisions about how to allocate their resources, they often choose to support causes for which they or someone in their family has a personal connection, or they do it for political or philosophical belief. One of the values of the research in this whole area is that it enables individual donors, women and men, to connect their experiences to the broader research landscape, and your story is its a perfect example of how all of this plays out.

I think thats great, I have to say in our household, definitely, my husband and I do our philanthropy individually, as well. And I do notice that a lot of my friends, professional friends, are focusing on womens causes but, also, fueling women entrepreneurs, as well.

[MV] So, Carrie, Andrea shared some of the Lilly Schools research, but I also know that the Schwab Foundation recently undertook some research of its own around women in financial planning. Can you share some of those findings with us?

[CSP] Yes. Ive been working on women investors or, you know, women as consumers for many years, and I like to say that weve come a distance from, say, 20, 30 years ago when I was still looking at this, but I was a little bit disappointed by this research, to be honest with you, and let me explain.

We conducted the survey on young people, 16 to 25 years old. Remember, these young people, you know, grew up in the Great Recession, and we did a gender cut of these young people and by the way, we did this among this group is because they are on the cusp of independence from, parents and so forth. And what we found is that these young women in the survey were doing all the right things, had the right attitude when it came to money, but they were still falling behind in savings and investing, indicating a gender inequality starting right out of the gate at home. So let me share some of the details.

These young women were likely to have a second job. They spent less than men, 30 percent in this survey, yet they had 40 percent less in savings than the young men. So the math doesnt work out, right? It doesnt work out. And to fuel what I call the financial insecurity fire, is that half of the young women had investment accounts versus the men. Ive obviously in my work done a lot of research on this, and what we do know from our own and from third-party research is that parents talk differently to their sons than their daughters when it comes to money. With their daughters, they talk about household expenditures, saving and budgeting, but with their sons they talk about the stock market, investing, and debt management. All are important, but utilizing debt smartly and investing starting at an early age is critical for financial independence.

And then on top of that, this is another survey, not ours, that parents are paying more to their boys for the same chores than girls.

[MV] Sort of the wage gap is starting in the home, basically.

[CSP] Thats exactly right. And so I think parents do it unconsciously, you know, or subconsciously. They dont mean to do it. So Im on a crusade to talk about this survey on and on, so that all of us who have young women in our lives make sure that they come along and are confident investors in their future.

[MV] You know, as someone who has dedicated so much time and energy to philanthropy, both personally and to the field, Carrie, what advice would you give to people, especially women who are beginning their philanthropic journey?

[CSP] First of all, I would just say dig in. You know, for me, I just did it, and you will find your way. But as I talked about my own journey what struck me most in terms of helping women, its, again, all about finding your passion. And I think about when you are reading materials or talking to friends, what kind of gets you jazzed? And its funny, when I was focusing on my philanthropy on women years ago, one of my college best friends said, Carrie, you always had that passion. And to be honest with you, I had kind of forgotten it, and this was a wonderful way for me to capture to work on it, right, to do something with that passion. And as I mentioned, the Charles Schwab Foundation is around financial literacy because we built this company on creating accessibility for people to build wealth and financial security. So its a passion that we all carry.

I have to give a plug to Schwab Charitable, since I am the chair of the board. But I always talk about, especially for people who are investors, that if you want to get more bang out of your buck on behalf of philanthropy, a donor-advised fund is a wonderful way to do it because it does allow you to give 100 percent, say, of appreciated stock directly to the nonprofit. And so its a win-win situation. And I know Ive been an avid supporter of it and user of it, and because of it, I give a lot more to philanthropy than I otherwise would because its so easy for me.

[MV] Great. Thank you for sharing that. So, Andrea, let me switch back to you for a second. From the data youve studied at IU, are there any insights on the future of philanthropy that your research points towards that you can share?

[AP] Id like to share two. The first is that were living in an era where theres concern about a decline in giving by individuals. My answer to this and my argument is that nonprofits should engage more women in ways that appeal to them. And the ripple effect of engaging women is palpable, and Carrie shared an example of that with the Atlanta Womens Foundation earlier in our session. Women bring their family, they bring their friends, and they bring their network along with them. So I think that the answer to this decline really rests with finding creative ways to reach the women.

The second point is about the impact, and it ties in with the theme of this podcast series. So were beginning to see that the model of the engagement matters, particularly for women. For women donors in giving circles and women donors to womens funds and foundations are more interested than general donors in measuring the impact of their giving. And in both of these models, these very specific models, the deep engagement leads to donors who are more knowledgeable about community needs, theyre more strategic in their giving, and ultimately they give more. So this has been a very interesting finding over a couple of research studies and I hope that we can delve more deeply into it in the coming years.

[MV] And, Andrea, with the first point you made about creative ways to reach women, that mirrors perfectly with something one of your fellow colleagues from IU talked about at the recent SSIR Nonprofit Management Institute, Tyrone McKinley Freeman hit upon many of the same points. And its interesting what you all said about the importance of impact for women. So, Carrie, as you know, the focus of this podcast series is the idea of giving with impact. Can you tell us how in your roles as president of the Charles Schwab Foundation and the chair of the board of Schwab Charitable, youre helping to make an impact?

[CSP] So, Michael, I have the best job at Schwab because I get to combine my business skills with philanthropy and having a great impact, not only for my colleagues and their sense of pride of working for Schwab, but also for the communities in which we work. So I have so many things to be proud of, but one of my greatest source of pride is the national partnership with Boys & Girls Club that weve had for 15, 16 years. We co-created a financial education program, you know, five modules and we will have one million teens have gone through that program. And what we do know is that teens that do go through it, financial education, are more likely to go to college and seek how to pay for it. So that to me is all about economic mobility and making a difference in these kids who, are unfortunately in not the greatest circumstances.

And then Schwab Charitable, our clients will have given $3 billion to charity this year. And what makes me excited is that weve made it so easy for individuals to give that we only see this number just continuing to rise, and it all goes to all our communities across the United States. So that, to me, is about impact.

[MV] We could easily keep this conversation going on and on, but, unfortunately, I think were nearing the end of our time for today. So, Carrie, Andrea, let me thank you both for your time. Ive hoped weve helped give our listeners some insights into gender and giving. And, again, all I can say is this has been a great conversation.

[CSP] Thanks, Michael.

[AP] Thank you very much.

[MV] Thank you for listening. We hope youve enjoyed this episode. Please consider leaving us a review on Apple podcast or your favorite listening app, as it helps others discover the show. We encourage you to listen to other episodes in this series, as well as other podcasts from SSIR. This podcast series is made possible with the support of Schwab Charitable, who played an important role in the selection of topics and speakers. For important disclosures and a transcript of this episode, visit ssir.org/GivingPodcast.

Go here for a disclosure from Schwab Charitable.

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